Official Languages Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Jolin. I'd like to thank you too, Mr. Lefebvre

I would now like to give the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for a brief two and half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My last question is for Mr. Landry. In your opinion, to what extent has "overcompleteness", or extreme overfunding of anglophone institutions in Quebec, including CEGEPs and universities, contributed to the decline of French in that province?

[Rodrigue Landry]

I can't really answer that because I'm not aware of the circumstances of extreme overfunding. These are not subjects that I've studied. I would just be talking through my hat if I tried to deal with them.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay. But you'd probably reach the same conclusions as us. I'll send you the data we have.

I'm going to return to you, Mr. Jolin. I really liked your comments. You mentioned the importance of having universities "by and for francophones". You mentioned Université de Hearst, which would like to become a francophone institution. You also spoke about the University of Sudbury.

Should we not focus most of the efforts on universities "by and for francophones"? As for funding educational institutions, it's been said that immersion schools often foster assimilation. Should we not then be assigning priority to schools that are "by and for francophones" across Canada?

[Carol Jolin]

I'll talk about the Ontario experience. In all areas where Francophones took the situation in hand with respect to education, things are working well. That included elementary and secondary school management and the establishment of colleges. There are now two francophone colleges. These are doing very well and there is no indication that we could not do the same thing in administering university postsecondary education. I think it's important to head in that direction.

Francophones are in the best position to know what the community's needs are. The situation at Laurentian University is a good example of what happens when things are left in the hands of organizations like that. Decisions were being made on the basis of what sop they could give to francophones to keep them from making waves, and would then concentrate on services for the large anglophone majorityx.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you Mr. Jolin. Thank you Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Boulerice now has the floor for two and half minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My next questions are for Mr. Forgues.

Mr. Forgues, you have underscored the importance of establishing research-based policies, which I find very interesting. You said that the current statutes talk about measurable objectives, but that other indicators are needed for a more complete picture.

What indicators are you talking about? What precisely do you have in mind?

[Éric Forgues]

Minister Joly's White paper shows that this is the direction she would like to take as well. I believe that's a good thing. There have already been studies on the subject. Mr. Landry, who is here with us today, could speak about it. All kinds of indicators could be explored with respect to people's linguistic practices, whether in the family, in public places or at work. There is also perhaps not enough discussion about work.

Monitoring the language situation over time shows that the workplace is also where assimilation occurs, and I believe that an effort needs to be made, even though economically speaking, there are no recognized language rights for the workplace that would enable organizations like businesses to do things like improving and enhancing the use of French. Promotion of this kind is required. There are also indicators for existing institutions. Accurate analyses are required. We have the means to do so. We have the resources and expertise and we should use them for this purpose.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's a very interesting avenue.

I recently met some people from the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones. They mentioned a degree of stagnation in the official languages program in the field of education. They said it was difficult under such conditions to retain children who went to French-language elementary schools. They found English-language high schools more attractive because they had more sports programs, cultural programs and field trips. Even though enrolment is up in elementary schools, they felt that because of underfunding for French-language schools, there was a downward trend for high schools.

Have you observed this as well?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Forgues.

[Éric Forgues]

At the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, Mr. Rodrigue Landry conducted research into school resources, which were not the same on the anglophone and francophone sides. The attractiveness of English may explain such phenomena, hence the importance of building educational infrastructures that can retain francophone students.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Forgues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

There are two 5-minute periods remaining. The first will go to Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Landry, Mr. Forgues and the representatives of the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario for being here with us.

I'd like to remind you that the study in progress is about measures that the government could take to protect and promote French in Quebec and in Canada.

Mr. Jolin, I'd like to begin with you, because I found your presentation very interesting.

My colleague Mr. Lefebvre spoke about accountability. In your presentation, you said that you had serious doubts about the appropriate use of the amounts contributed by the federal and provincial governments, and that perhaps is where the heart of the matter lies.

Today, we've been speaking about Laurentian University, where decisions were probably based more on interest in the development and preservation of the institution. I don't feel that the University wants to promote and protect French. That is not its mandate. Perhaps it should be, but it isn't.

The federal government has its responsibilities and the provincial government has its as well. Each organization has different missions and objectives. Of course, institutional administrators are playing for time to stay alive. They see opportunities and hand out money, and student fees also generate revenue.

We're talking about Laurentian University today, but Ms. Risbud, who came to speak to us about Campus Saint-Jean in Alberta, told us last week that the spending by the various governments on education had not increased for 20 years.

Wouldn't it be possible for organizations like yours, which exist elsewhere in Canada too, to take on the specific mandate of performing a watchdog role to ensure that the financial contributions are used to good effect?

Wouldn't that be an option?

[Carol Jolin]

You referred to the mandate of Laurentian University, which is a bilingual universityx.

But the most important thing for us—and it is part of our mandate—is to ensure the sustainability of programs offered in French in the mid-north. Our work is to protect the rights of francophones and to improve their status in Ontario so that they can receive as many services as possible in French.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Jolin. I am very familiar with your mandate, but you have no binding powers.

Could you not be assigned a mandate by the two levels of government to be the watchdog to ensure the best possible use of public funds?

The university has a mandate, but it also needs to survive in a competitive world.

[Carol Jolin]

If the funding required came along with the mandate, that would certainly be interesting.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

What's the answer?

[Carol Jolin]

Are you talking about options for accountability or funding?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In terms of effectiveness, what's the best option to ensure that our institutions are there for good and that they respect and protect French while promoting it.

Mr. Landry mentioned that it was important to emphasize early childhood, but that it was also important to do so throughout the educational process. The drop-off appears to occur at the postsecondary level.

What's the answer, Mr. Jolin?

[Carol Jolin]

The main problem is transparency. The solution is to make the data public. That would mean nobody could alter the numbers. That in itself is a challenge. We know how universities are administered. We need to make all the data available, as businesses do, when shareholders are provided every year with data at an annual general meeting, for example.

Because public funds are used to finance education, people have a right to be informed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Jolin and Mr. Godin.

Mr. Arseneault, over to you for five minutes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like once again to welcome everyone to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. We have in fact met all of you before, at least once, if not more often.

Your testimony was excellent. We learn something every day, even though we may have the impression that we are always taken up with our desire and determination to move things forward on behalf of our language communities.

I'd like to reiterate what Mr. Godin said at the outset. We are conducting a study on measures taken by the federal government to protect and promote the French language in Canada and in Quebec. That's what I would like to focus on.

Before addressing the issue of modernizing the official languages act, I'd like us to talk about links. There are indeed many links in the chain of events that allow us to promote these much talked about linguistic minorities. I hope that I'm not wrong when I say that education is one of these links. Everything begins with education, which enables us to read and understand our minority language.

I'm going to follow up on what my colleague Mr. Lefebvre said about the new census to be conducted in 2021, which will provide us with information and results about rights holders. I'll begin with Mr. Forgues.

What do you feel will be the repercussions on the geographical map of our language communities in Canada? Will it have a positive or negative impact on our language communities?

[Éric Forgues]

We often carry out analyses for communities that need to know how many rights holders there are in their school zone and district. We do these piecemeal with limited means, because we do not have all the data required to come up with an accurate estimate of populations that meet the criteria set out in section 23 of the charter.

This new census will enable us to do a Canada-wide estimate for each of the zones. We will be able to meet a need. It will enable planners, by which I mean those who need to make decisions, to know where to build, renovate or expand schools. They will need an accurate number for the rights holders and thus for potential in the communities.

I'd like to reiterate that we are currently operating on a piecemeal basis and with limited means and data. Although we can make estimates, the number of rights holders has been seriously underestimated in some instances. We were building the school for a certain number of rights holders' children and came to the realization shortly afterwards that there were many more than expected.

We will be able to do a much better job of planning school infrastructures for the whole country with the new census results in hand.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I'm really looking forward to seeing these results. I think we will have them in 2022.

Might I be so bold as to ask you whether you have an initial impression of what the figures will be. Have there been assessments in Canada that can already give us a taste of what we might expect from the next census about rights holders?