Official Languages Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Pierre Riopel]

I read the same article you did, Mr. Beaulieu, so I'm somewhat familiar with the situation.

This mobilization effort, which was called the "resistance" in 2018, is in the DNA of Franco-Ontarians.

In all previous situations pertaining to our francophone institutions, our high schools and our colleges, we have always come out on top.

That's why I'm very optimistic.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Excellent.

Before the Minister of Official Languages appeared before the Standing Committee on Official Languages in March, she announced a $5 million amount that could be used by the University of Sudbury.

Do you have any further news about this? I personally think that the finds would be better used in that way.

[Pierre Riopel]

When I read the short section of the sentence that said "might be", I was somewhat worried about the verb tense. However, I'm delighted that the question is being dealt with directly and that it was specified that the money would help find a solution by, for and with Franco-Ontarians.

The project being worked on by the University of Sudbury is aimed precisely at that. We want governance in French and we want to operate in French, not within a bilingual structure, as Mr. Constantineau mentioned.

I would like to add in passing that two northern Ontario éminences grises commented on the issue in February. They are Pierre Bélanger, a businessman and former teacher, and Réjean Grenier, an editorial writer. They are both alumni of Laurentian University, and they agree that it's time to turn the page and move into ^x the 21st century because the era of so-called bilingual institutions is over.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

According to one of the researchers who appeared here, Ontario francophones account for 4.7% of the population and receive 3% of the provincial budget for postsecondary education. In Quebec, anglophones account for just over 8% of the population and receive 30% of the budget for their postsecondary institutions.

Why do you think there is so little funding for French-language postsecondary educational institutions, particularly from provincial governments?

[Pierre Riopel]

In all likelihood, it means that we have some catching up to do. We've proved our worth in school and college institutions. Give us a chance to do the same with universities.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I couldn't ask for more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. I'd also like to thank our other witness.

Mr. Boulerice, the next five minutes are yours. Please go ahead.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Constantineau and Mr. Riopel for being with us today.

Right off the bat, I'd say that I'm totally onside with your initiative and your plans for a university by and for francophones in mid-northern Ontario.

As Mr. Blaney said earlier, if the committee can come up with a positive and constructive contribution on the subject, I would of course like to be involved.

I'd like to hear your opinion about the mechanism which, it would appear, requires provincial-federal participation. Do you feel that this would give a provincial government that is less favourable towards the rights of francophones and services in French the right to veto certain initiatives?

Don't you think this might be a mechanism we should review one day?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Could one of you field this question?

[Pierre Riopel]

As someone who is not a legal expert, I find it a little difficult to answer this question. I believe that it's a matter of jurisdiction. I think that it's an additional barrier that needs to be overcome, particularly in the postsecondary field.

As for governance, I do not administer budgets on a daily basis. At the previous meeting, I listened closely when people talked about the concept of accountability. I believe that's extremely important. I experienced it in schools, for example, at a time when anglophones were in the majority on school boards.

As Mr. Constantineau mentioned a few moments ago, we used to get French money. All of a sudden, the French money was disappearing and we didn't know where.

We were told that money was being spent on French-language schools, which was not necessarily always true. We know it, and it's a fact. Let's just say it complicates things for us.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay.

Do you have anything you'd like to add, Mr. Constantineau?

[Denis Constantineau]

Not knowing where the money is going certainly complicates the whole issue.

Mr. Haché was talking earlier about programs that had been cancelled because there weren't enough students. What people fail to say is that for a long time, there was no investment in these programs, professors weren't replaced when they left, and the programs weren't promoted. Now, in 2021, we're told that there are only two students left in such and such a program, that it's not viable, and that it's going to be eliminated. If the program had been handled appropriately, and received some funds, then who knows whether it might not be viable today. It becomes a purely financial exercise, which is not really the right way to run a university.

[Pierre Riopel]

I'd like to add that bilingual institutions receive funding precisely to deal with this type of situation.

It's exactly the same thing for schools. There are small high schools in northern Ontario, and they receive funding to compensate for the fact that a high school might have only 48 students. This kind of funding exists.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

From the governance standpoint, what do you think would be the best mechanism to ensure that federal postsecondary education transfers meet the postsecondary education needs of Francophones in minority communities, and that this money is not used for other things? For example, funds are transferred, supposedly to help francophones or French-language teaching, and ends up being used for snow clearance, as we heard earlier.

Can you answer this one for us, Mr. Riopel?

[Pierre Riopel]

When all is said and done, I think it becomes a question of accountability. An explanation is needed on where the money went. We're also hoping that it's not just pennies, but really dollars, lots of dollars. I think that having an accountability system would solve the problem.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have a final question. Despite the underinvestment in Laurentian University's French programs in recent years, are you sure that you would be able to offer these programs and this service at the future Sudbury French-language University?

[Denis Constantineau]

I alluded earlier to the implementation board, one of whose roles would be to determine which programs are really viable with appropriate investment and which new programs would be required for the development of the community and for the future of the university

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Boulerice.

Thank you to the witnesses.

In order to meet the time requirements, Mr. Dalton and Mr. Serré will have three minutes each, while Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Boulerice will each have a minute and a half.

Mr. Dalton, it's over to you for three minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Riopel and Mr. Constantineau.

My mother is Franco-Ontarian. She is a native of northern Ontario, more specifically Opasatika, which is not far from Kapuskasing. I'm therefore quite interested in your specific situation, and the circumstances for francophones everywhere in Canada.

This situation is somewhat confused. Mr. Haché said that the number of Francophone students is stable and is even increasing. However, we can see that many programs have been cut. Can you explain that to us? Were there also significant cuts made to English-language programs, or was it mainly for the francophone programs at the university?

My question is for Mr. Riopel.

[Pierre Riopel]

It's not easy for me to comment on the numbers Dr. Haché mentioned because I don't necessarily have access to them.

Mr. Constantineau might be able to answer your first question more accurately.

As for your second question, according to what I've read, and to my knowledge, the francophone community was affected disproportionately compared to the anglophone majority at Laurentian University. It's really very worrisome for us.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Right.

In the first hour, a witness told us that in 1981, the percentage of Canada's population with a postsecondary degree was 37%. Today, this percentage has almost doubled to 65%. That's a huge increase. I feel that we need more program funding, particularly from the federal government.

Do you feel that federal funding is adequate to guarantee substantive equality for French-language and bilingual postsecondary institutions for the linguistic minority?

[Pierre Riopel]

The short answer is no, because there are often additional costs for minority language communities. That's clear. It's also the experience I had at the high school and college levels. The fact that we are in a minority language community is something we have to take into account.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr Dalton.

We'll continue with Mr. Serré.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for three minutes.