Official Languages Committee on June 8th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Vinet-Roy.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I agree with you, Ms. Vinet-Roy. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Beaulieu, you have seven minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin by thanking our witnesses.

My first question is for Ms. Vinet-Roy.

Ms. Vinet-Roy, you seem to be saying that the underfunding of Ontario schools has truly become chronic and that it's because of the funding structure.

Could you tell us a little more about that?

[Anne Vinet-Roy]

It's sometimes possible to obtain funding by other means. For example, we often obtain funds from the Department of Canadian heritage, sometimes by hiring new staff via immigration. There are collaboration initiatives, but these are always through special projects

Is your question mainly for post-secondary education, or do you want to know about the other levels of education too?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'd say mainly the other levels, because you're an elementary and secondary specialist.

[Anne Vinet-Roy]

Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.

There really is a problem insofar as over a period of several years now, funds have been cut here and there, drying up a little bit, and the problems have been escalating. We have therefore been trying to do more with less for a number of years now. Even though the general impression is that millions and billions of dollars are being spent, it's not necessarily the case.

The pandemic hasn't helped improve the situation, but for many years now, we in the world of education are being expected to do more with less. This exhausts and undermines our resources, because children have an increasing number of specific needs that need to be dealt with.

We need resources that are up-to-date, and I don't mean only technology. If we want minority community education to continue, then as I mentioned earlier, we need to give due regard to the importance of identity-building, and to the specific context and very special mission of French-language education, which goes well beyond subject matter and teaching methodology.

I would also mention cultural aspects and family engagement. The vitality of our communities in many Ontario communities depends largely on schools. This requires special resources which, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes cost more in isolated communities like Timmins, Hearst, some of the smaller communities in Eastern Ontario, or in the southern part of the province. This has to be taken into account, and flexibility is required.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

As you mentioned, education is crucial for the linguistic vitality of Franco-Ontarians. This raises questions about the Ontario government's willingness to contribute to the vitality of Franco-Ontarians.

I've often heard it said that immersion schools were schools for assimilation, because many francophones attend them and end up in an anglophone setting.

Wouldn't it be better to begin by making sure that schools designed by and for francophones are adequately funded to meet demand and grow before placing such an emphasis on immersion schools?

[Anne Vinet-Roy]

I don't want to be judgmental about immersion schools or immersion programs, because bilingualism is important in Canada. It's one of our country's and our province's values.

Do people opt for immersion programs because French-language schools don't have the courses they would like because of a funding shortfall? That's definitely possible. It's sometimes a matter of competition, which we discussed earlier.

Is it because children know that, sooner or later, after elementary and high school, they won't have access to the programs they want in French and decide that it might be best to go towards the anglophone side of things to have a direct path to the post-secondary system? That too is a problem. The connection is important.

With everything being done at the elementary and secondary levels, it's worth pausing to ask what the outcome will be without a logical next step or learning continuum in French at the post-secondary level with as many programs as possible, on the basis of which families can make the required decisions about what career their children wish to pursue, and whether they will leave their region. So there is an exodus as a result of the education system, not to mention the rural exodus, which hasn't been helping.

So once again, it's important to consider the big picture. We need to make sure that the Ontario education system in French-language minority settings, provides services and courses that are as dynamic and diverse as possible. They should also be equivalent to what's available in English. If the French side of things doesn't look as good, then there is a risk of motivating families and children to move to the English-language system.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Vinet-Roy.

Ms. Adam, Frédéric Lacroix, a researcher who was at the last meeting of this committee, said that Ontario francophones, who represent 4.7% of the population, receive 3% of the provincial budget for their post-secondary education, in comparison to anglophones in Quebec, who account for 8% of the population and receive 30% of the budget for their post-secondary education.

What do you think is the reason for the chronic underfunding of post-secondary educational institutions for Ontario francophones?

[Dyane Adam]

There are several reasons.

The main reason is probably that in French Ontario, we don't have the institutional maturity of post-secondary educational institutions in Quebec, where three major English-language universities and several CEGEPs have been established for a long time. In Ontario, we are still in the process of creating the first autonomous French-language University.

There has been significant investment over many years in the English-language system in Quebec, whereas here the story is very different. We haven't followed the same path or the same trajectory.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Not only that, but when we look at the history, we can see that under Ontario's Regulation 17, French schools had been prohibited in the province.

How to explain the fact that the budget allotted by the government of Ontario to Francophone post-secondary educational institutions is still below the demographic weight of francophones in the province?

[Dyane Adam]

If you look at university funding across the country, Ontario is the province that provides the least core funding to post-secondary educational institutions. I think it's around 25%. It's the province with the lowest funding for post-secondary education, including French-language universities.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Basically, you want permanent funding from the federal government because if the government of Ontario and the other provincial governments wanted to provide equitable funding to francophone post-secondary institutions, this obligation would not exist. Is that right?

[Dyane Adam]

No. I believe the federal government also has an obligation to do so, like the provinces.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You're saying that the federal government is not providing enough funding to post-secondary educational institutions compared to Ontario. You mentioned a contribution of 16%.

What are you referring to?

[Dyane Adam]

If I had some nice charts I could perhaps give you a better explanation of what I am talking about.

Everyone was talking about core funding for all the universities, which is often related to student numbers. I'm talking about English-language, bilingual and Francophone universities.

Ontario, unlike the other provinces represented by my colleagues around the table, and by the witnesses you've met, acknowledged two decades ago that more money should be given to universities that offered programs in French, whether the universities were bilingual or francophone. That meant recognition that they had additional costs to deal with. In this envelope, Ontario is currently providing approximately…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Adam, excuse me for interrupting, but your speaking time is up.

Mr. Boulerice gets to ask the final questions.

You have seven minutes, Mr. Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here with us.

My first question is for Ms. Vinet-Roy.

The Rector of the Université de Moncton and the Dean of Campus Saint-Jean spoke to us about a leveling off or a virtual freeze on the official languages program in education.

Is that what you have found over the past few years, Ms. Vinet-Roy?

[Anne Vinet-Roy]

As I was saying earlier, we were able to develop a number of special projects with support from Canadian Heritage. This was in partnership with others for the program I spoke about for teachers becoming available through the immigration process. The project was conducted jointly with the Association des directions et directions adjointes des écoles franco-ontariennes, the ADFO, with the Éducatrices et éducateurs francophones du Manitoba, the ÉFM, and with the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the CTF. Some projects with the CTF were through Canadian Heritage.

We' re doing what we can with what we've got. This approach is still working, but once again were being offered one-time assistance that is not always long term. The assistance that has been received is intended to address a very specific situation, but we need more stable long-term funding that would enable us to find creative solutions for supporting the various French-language communities within the school communities.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

A few weeks ago, I met a number of witnesses from a francophone school board—I can't remember its exact name—and they were talking about how stagnant funding could affect the appeal of programs, particularly in terms of cultural and sports activities.

They told me, first of all, that there was a clear increase in enrollment. However, when students had a choice, they would sometimes change their mind and go to an anglophone high school where there might be more sports or other activities, like theatre, which they might find more appealing.

Are you finding the same thing in Ontario?

[Anne Vinet-Roy]

I varies from one community to another, depending on the activities and services on offer, because there's more to going to school in Ontario than just teaching a curriculum, given our very specific mission.

So we have noticed this change in direction, which is gradual. We lose students, sometimes in grade 7, grade 8, or after grade 6 in Ontario, because students are getting ready to enter the intermediate and senior divisions, depending on the system. And we might also lose some before the end of high school. We lose some students in grade 11 or grade 12, before graduation, because young people head towards programs available in their language, choose otherwise, or else they enter the labour market directly.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Vinet-Roy.

Ms. Adam, I really liked your earlier crystal clear comment to the effect that the federal government had a quasi-constitutional responsibility for ensuring the continuity of francophone communities, not only everywhere in Canada, but also in dynamic institutions like education, which is clearly the backbone of these communities.

You also said that the circumstances in Ontario were different. I got the impression that I was hearing the opposite of what I heard earlier from Campus Saint-Jean, which is that the federal government was coming up short compared to what the province was providing.

Did you mention $21 million? Is that what I heard?

[Dyane Adam]

The amount is $29 million.

Our funding structure is obviously different than the one for Campus Saint-Jean.

The province acknowledged that the costs were higher, which is a step forward compared to others. Because the federal government invests very little in the core operations of universities, there is a shortfall on the federal side.

I'm not saying that this amount is enough. The Ontario francophone network truly needs to be consolidated, as we can see from what has been happening in Sudbury, and also with respect to what we are building.

I think that it's essential to find a formula. The formula for additional funding in Ontario could be used as an example. I'm not saying that it's perfect, because it was developed at least 20 years ago. But it's nevertheless a starting point.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Earlier on, you were somewhat critical about the logic of funding based on numbers, which I call accounting logic, and which doesn't factor in the context of official language minority communities. These don't have the same economies of scale and there are fewer people.

MP riding offices, for example, receive additional funds if they are bigger than average and the population is larger than for most of the other ridings. Adjustments are made.

How do you think adjustments like this could be made to deal with the challenges tied to cultural aspects, and to minority and linguistic contexts?