Official Languages Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Alain Dupuis, Director General, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada]

Piggybacking on Ms. Roy's remarks, the former roadmaps for official languages provided for funding to support communities that travelled overseas, that took part in Destination Canada, in Europe, the Middle East and various other regions of the world, and that funding was cancelled.

The communities haven't received any federal government funding to conduct those promotional activities abroad for many years now.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I know the Cité collégiale is playing a major role in Africa providing training to prepare francophone immigrants who want to come to Canada.

Mr. Dupuis, your efforts are important. I know we've had many meetings in which we discussed how important it was to introduce a bill to modernize official languages. In fact, Ms. Roy, his predecessor and you told me many times how important it was for you that the bill be introduced as soon as possible.

However, is it perfect? That remains to be seen, and I'm sure you'll be proposing amendments.

How important do you think it is for the bill to be debated and for you to have an opportunity to discuss it in committee as soon as possible?

[Liane Roy]

It's very important for us that the bill be adopted because it has some very good components; we've discussed that. However some components need to be reworked. We hope we can work with the various committees to ensure that the amendments we propose are considered. Most of you in this room have received them.

So we think it's very important that it be done quickly but, above all, that it be done well and that we have a chance to make amendments to the components that need to be reworked. For example, we're proposing an amendment respecting francophone immigration that we'd like to see added to the bill.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Roy.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to introduce my motion, which I circulated to all committee members on April 1^x.

I don't know whether the members of the committee would like me to read it, but it's simply related to Bill C-13. Parliament will be in recess for two weeks, and I think it's important that we have an opportunity to submit our witness lists. The motion mentions April 25, but, since we'll be returning from the parliamentary recess in the week of April 25, that doesn't allow committee members much time to think about the people they'd like to invite. With that in mind, Mr. Chair, I don't think any speaker in the room would oppose the idea of starting the pre-study of Bill C-13 as soon as possible.

I propose to invite the Minister of Official Languages and the President of the Treasury Board—I know we've had many questions about the role of the Treasury Board and centralization. I ask the committee members to vote for this motion, and, as a matter of form, I will read it to refresh everyone's memory.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f):

1. the Committee begin a subject matter study on the Government’s modernization of the Official Languages Act, comparing Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act and to make related amendments to other Acts; to Bill C-32, An Act to amend the Official Languages Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, from the 43rd^x Parliament, and English and French: Towards a substantive equality of official languages in Canada; 2. the Committee invite the Minister of Official Languages and the President of the Treasury Board to discuss the changes between Bill C-13 and previous legislation, and to respond to questions on the current bill before the House; 3. members of the Committee submit their prioritized witness lists for the study to the clerk of the committee no later than 12:00 p.m. on Friday, April 25, 2022, and that the compiled list be distributed to members that same day; 4. if Bill C-13 is referred to the committee by the House during the subject matter study, all evidence and documentation received by the Committee during the study related to Bill C-13 be taken into consideration by the Committee during its legislative study of Bill C-13; 5. the clerk of the Committee notifies immediately each Member of Parliament who is not a member of a caucus represented on the Committee, to inform them of the beginning of the subject matter study in order to invite them to start working on their proposed amendments to the Bill, which would be considered during the clause-by-clause study of the Bill C-13; and 6. the Committee begin this subject matter study no later than Wednesday, May 4, 2022.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

Before going any further, as everyone has received a copy of the motion, I'd like to know if we have the unanimous consent of committee members.

First, I'd like to hear what Mr. Beaulieu has to say.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Personally, I think it's unfortunate that we're encroaching on the witnesses' time. Since we have a lot of them in the first part of the meeting, I wonder whether we shouldn't extend it because we'll be penalizing the witnesses and the members wishing to ask questions.

I'm not in favour of the motion. All the studies we're conducting right now are entirely relevant to the study of Bill C-13. Since we've already discussed a pre-study, I'm not in favour of this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I've considered that point, Mr. Beaulieu. This isn't the same motion as the last one, which we can't discuss because we were in camera. It's not exactly the same, and that's why I allowed it. Believe me, I checked with our advisers before deciding the matter.

Are there any further remarks on this motion before we move on?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I had requested the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are listening, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I somewhat agree with my Bloc Québécois colleague. It's a bit insensitive to intervene in this way in the middle of a witness panel.

I suggest that the committee adjourn debate on the motion and resume it at another time.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

First, the motion was duly submitted on Monday. Everyone has read it. It is being moved by the mover. Therefore I'm listening.

Madam Clerk, we will suspend briefly because I want to check something.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We're back.

There will be no debate. We have to vote on Mr. Godin's motion to adjourn debate on the motion introduced by Mr. Drouin.

Madam Clerk, you may proceed with the vote.

(Motion of Mr. Godin agreed to by 6 votes to 5.)

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's settled then.

Mr. Beaulieu, do you wish to add anything?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Could we extend the first part of the meeting slightly since we'll be hearing from three witnesses in the second part?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, we'll do exactly what we did on Monday. I checked with the committee's support staff, and we can extend the meeting in the same way, with two rounds of questions for each of the two hours.

I may have to shorten the second period of questions.

We will continue with Mr. Beaulieu, who has six minutes to question the witnesses.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Castonguay.

We've seen a sharp decline in the number of francophones and francotrope allophones as a percentage of permanent immigrants since the Canadian immigration system was changed and permanent immigrants are now being admitted with temporary student or worker status.

Would you agree that the Canadian government should allow Quebec to control the entry of immigrants with temporary status?

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

I think there's a problem impairing communication between the Canadian and Quebec governments, and I don't know what it is. There's a duplication of responsibility for immigration, as a result of which many immigrants from France, for example, who are frustrated with the endless delays in regularizing their status and acquiring permanent residence. It's scandalous.

In addition, large numbers of francophone African students who want to come and study in Quebec are being refused.

It isn't surprising that, according to new immigration data, the immigrants Quebec is receiving aren't 80% or 90% francophone or francotrope, even though that would be normal. I repeat, this isn't a problem that solely affects francophone minorities outside Quebec. The majority in Quebec is desperate. According to the most recent census in Quebec, French is the mother tongue of only 78% of Quebeckers. That's unheard of in the history of Canadian censuses since 1871.

One of the major problems is immigration: the recruitment and selection of an appropriate number of immigrants to maintain an 80% francophone majority in Quebec. The percentage is declining with each census. We'll see what it is in the new data in August, when the percentage will be below 78%. It's inevitable. It's mathematical, if you will pardon the term.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Here's an example. Students who apply for temporary study permits are first accepted by a CEGEP or French-language university. The data are virtually the same for Quebec and regions outside Quebec. In Quebec, students receive an acceptance certificate from the Quebec government, and, in some cases, 80% are refused by the Canadian government.

That's why I think the Quebec government should have the last say in the matter, and a mechanism should ultimately be found for students outside Quebec.

A chancellor of a francophone university outside Quebec told us he was travelling abroad to recruit francophone immigrants but that the vast majority of temporary students recruited were refused by the Canadian government. This is incomprehensible. Students from the francophone pools are essentially the ones with the highest refusal rates.

I don't know whether you or the other speakers have any suggestions for us.

When refusal rates in the francophone African countries such as Algeria, for example, are 80% or 90%, it seems to me there should be a way for the immigration department to issue an instruction prohibiting refusal rates over 50%, or something like that.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

In my opening remarks, I talked about having a Canadian perspective on the subject. The problem affects both Quebec and francophone communities outside Quebec. There has to be an overview, a global view, because the weight of francophones isn't just declining in New Brunswick or Quebec; it's falling across all of Canada. It's in free fall. We've gone from 29% in the 1951 census to 21% in the 2016 census. It will dip below 20% if this continues.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Here's what I think. The FCFA is asking us to raise the immigration rate outside Quebec to 12%, whereas the 4.4% target has never been met since 2008.

I'm not challenging your request, but isn't there ultimately a risk we'll be robbing Peter to pay Paul? We need to take a new approach to increasing immigration in and outside Quebec. I don't see how we can do it if there's no political will to do so.

[Prof. Charles Castonguay]

I think the Canadian government should open its eyes and see the problem as you've presented it.

All the provinces need more, an increase in the weight of mother-tongue francophones, francotropes and allophones who are prepared to acquire the French language and culture. All of us, all the provinces, need them.

How do we go about it so that Quebec doesn't hurt New Brunswick or itself and doesn't hurt Ontario and so on; what is the…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Castonguay and Mr. Beaulieu.

We can come back to that.

The next round of questions will come from Mr. Boulerice.

Mr. Boulerice, you have six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us today for this very important matter.

My first question will concern the international component and is for Mr. Théberge or Ms. Mallet or both.

Immigration is obviously an international phenomenon, and we need to promote our francophonie here at home using our diplomatic tools. We need visa offices, which are really lacking in the present government's consular services network, but we also need cultural, economic and diplomatic relations.

How should the francophone immigration policy be coordinated with other departments, such as Global Affairs Canada, for example, to ensure it focuses on Acadie, not on ivory tower discussions with IRCC?

[Martin Théberge]

Thank you for your question.

We alluded to that earlier. We're saying the central issue is that we can't handle immigration as a single entity. We can't deal with immigration in isolation.

Earlier my FCFA colleagues referred to the previous program. A diplomacy program has an impact on immigration, but also on many other sectors of society. It enables a people, such as the Acadian people, to recruit internationally, establish cooperative arrangements, promote its artists and promote Acadie and Canada as places that are good to live in. It has an impact on immigration and on other sectors as well.

That kind of program would be combined with immigration as long as Global Affairs Canada, for example, agreed to recognize the ability to conduct international initiatives as sources of vitality and development of a people. That would also help give the Acadian people the power to attract and integrate more immigrants to and in their community. You can't discuss immigration by discussing immigration alone.