Evidence of meeting #8 for Pay Equity in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terms.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to our second round.

The first seven minutes of questioning will be for Mr. Sheehan.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for your information so far. I've appreciated your comments, in particular on some of the matters related to Canada's indigenous people and newcomers. As the committee knows, we've heard information over and over again about the gap being much larger in those two particular areas.

I'm from northern Ontario. I've mentioned before that I'm not indigenous, but my daughter and my wife are. They're Métis, and they have a lot of Ojibwa in them. My niece is Inuit. I really appreciated your comments on those matters.

I also appreciated the comments about starting from within ourselves, and taking a look at the gender parity in cabinet and in the boardrooms. It's so important to be in that dialogue within ourselves and to start elevating the discussion.

I thank all of the committee here, because we've been given a very important mandate. We've sat down and devoted a lot of time, which is necessary, in a very short period.

I appreciate your coming out here on a Tuesday.

One of the things we've been talking about, too, is measurement. One of the difficult issues of pay equity is measurement. What methods of measurement have the departments historically used to determine the success or challenges associated with pay equity? What are your opinions on that?

Minister Mihychuk, I know you talked about Canada Post taking 30 years to resolve an issue. We've heard about Bell Canada taking 15 years and such. I would like your comments on measurements that have been used, and perhaps on how we should be measuring this going forward.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

It's interesting that the labour program actually does not measure or ask companies to report on pay equity. We ask them to report on gender issues and on diversity, so when they do their reporting they'll say that they have made certain progress here and there, but we actually don't go into pay equity.

Many of the measurements have been incorporated, like I say, through other provincial requirements. As I said, 84% of the private sector companies are now within the Ontario and Quebec proactive regimes. It is important, then, for you to consider exactly what measurements. That is how we monitor. We use data and science to see whether we're making progress or not. At this point, the present regime doesn't.

We've seen some significant changes because women and unions have launched complaints. We have a complaint system right now. It took Canada Post 30 years. As well, I've noted that the Peterborough Public Library was finally awarded compensation. CUPE took them on and complained. It started in 2011. They had a relatively swift result, coming to a conclusion in February 2016, but it's still such a long, protracted, costly procedure. Every one of these hearings is probably represented by legal counsel, and it's all very formal and litigious.

The Human Resources Professionals Association issued a white paper on April 12 of this year. The name of that report is “Closing the Gender Wage Gap: A Review and Recommendations”. In that report, 912 professionals were surveyed. It actually cites that StatsCan estimates the wage gap at between 12% and 31.5%. When we look at those numbers, I think it's clear that if we look at our indigenous people they are in general earning less than the regular population. As well, if you are female and indigenous, it is twice as bad, because things are even more challenging.

I'll never forget being involved with a program to try to get women from a local reserve to be heavy equipment operators. The point was that many of them would make excellent drivers. Women are easier on heavy equipment. They don't rev the motors as much, they're more gentle with the touch, and they like large toys. They can handle it, but as soon as a woman would be interested in going, she would lose her housing. Her kids would not have a school. Their supports wouldn't be there.

Somehow, our system does not provide that transition, which is so important, and then it goes into the bigger wage gap. If women were able to be operating the large equipment, they would then be more likely to make a healthy wage and participate in our economy.

Those kinds of systemic problems occur, whether it's in chemistry, in geoscience, or in my background, minerals. We could make it into the laboratory or generally to the VP level, but it's very difficult to go higher. The number of women who are mine managers is tiny. It's less than 2%. It's not that there aren't women with enormous experience who are capable. These are systemic discriminatory issues that come from the culture, which is a kind of a boy's culture. For years and years they felt if you put a woman underground that would be unlucky.

I've always remembered that a mine in Snow Lake had the highest number of women underground in Canada, and that very mine won the safest mine in Canada award two or three times in a row. The mine shut down, as is typical for many, and they're all now tellers at the bank or whatever. They tell me they would be glad to go underground if given the opportunity.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Thank you very much.

We will move to the next question, from Ms. Gladu.

You have seven minutes.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Excellent. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Albas.

My question is for Minister Mihychuk.

One of the things we've heard when listening to what is making up the wage gap.... Part of it is the hourly wage, or the annual salary, and part of it is bonus compensation. We heard from Statistics Canada that they don't have the granularity to tell or get some transparency on what is happening there.

I know you are undertaking some EI reforms. You are probably working closely with your CRA counterparts. If there was a way of getting granularity on people's T4 slips or something, to break down the total compensation so you could plug the holes where discrimination is happening, that would be good.

I had the multiple sclerosis folks come by for a visit today. They told me that four times as many women as men are subject to MS. As part of that, a lot of times it is a recurring disease, so they have recurring absences in the workplace. The other side of what we have been looking at is why women leave the workplace. Sometimes it's disease; sometimes it's elder care. Any way we can make an adjustment or a reform in the EI system to help compensate for that would be great.

Perhaps you could comment.

7 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The bonus system is very prominent and common, especially in the private sector. The higher you go up in the company, this is something that can make a significant difference.

We have all heard stories, and the statistics show that women haven't really been raised in a culture of saying, “I deserve a million dollars”, or whatever the bonus. We don't play hockey, in general, so we are not privy to sharing what is common. Sometimes we don't know how to ask; other times we don't have the confidence to. It is a very good idea to have a look, with CRA, to see if we can get a handle on that. We might follow up on that, for sure.

In terms of MS, this is a particularly large problem, especially in the Prairies. We have a very high number of people, most of them women, who have this disease, and it comes and goes. I am very proud to say that part of my mandate is to look at EI and compensation that is much more flexible. If people need to leave, let's hold their position and they will come back. We are definitely looking at opportunities like this, and we'll put that into the mix.

Thank you for your comments.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

It's over to you, Mr. Albas.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Minister, we spoke earlier. Even in your own opening comments, you said the government wants to reach out and engage with stakeholders and partners to come up with timely workable solutions.

Again, you have said a few times that a big part of your process is to work with stakeholders to find consensus. When you have FETCO, and when you have the Canadian Bankers Association, representing two-thirds of the federally regulated workforce, saying they have very real concerns, it doesn't sound as though they were consulted. As for the amount of consultation that has been done, I think it has been through this committee process, and they felt rushed.

What do you say to that?

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

It's a good point. Sometimes it is very difficult to get consensus. We try to move with the best collaboration we can. This is a perfect venue to hear from all the stakeholders and look for a system that is going to give time and a process to allow companies to meet the new demands and make that a reality.

I must point out that in 2013 the previous government went ahead with a series of changes that were directly opposed by unions and the labour movement, increasing the—

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Right now I am talking specifically about the private sector, though. There are concerns right now.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

There are concerns. As I was saying, whenever you have a system that is going to put one group, either labour or private sector, in a position of extreme disadvantage—for instance, like the 40 trade unions, women's groups, and human rights organizations that supported PSAC in their appeal because of the 2013 legislation—

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Minister, I am asking about private sector concerns.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

That unbalanced the situation, and what we keep on talking about is actually making it a relationship that works for everyone.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Minister, I would just like to go back—

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Minister Brison also wanted to answer that question.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Actually, Madam Chair, I'm questioning the witness. Thank you.

Telecommunications, banking, grain handling, uranium mining, pipelines, Canada Post, VIA Rail, airports, navigation, airlines, trains across provincial borders, marine shipping, ferry and port services, trucks and buses that cross provincial borders, that's a very wide range and we've even had staff from your department come and say that to try to use a one-size-fits-all approach for such a very diverse marketplace, Minister, is a big challenge.

Are you using just this committee? I do admit that this is a great committee, with great members, great process, and a great chair, but is this the only consultation you've done towards this process?

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

What we do know is that 84% of the companies that are in federally regulated industries operate in Ontario and Quebec and are actually covered by proactive pay equity legislation very successfully.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Can I ask you, Minister, about your area, though?

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Now we work very closely with the 16%—

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Have you consulted?

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

MaryAnn Mihychuk Liberal Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

— who have not already been included to be sure. We look forward to your comments from this process.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I'm looking forward to your comment on my question, which is specific.

Have you done the consultation? This is a wide range of employees. I'm not saying you dismissed two-thirds of the representatives who voiced their concerns, but I'm starting to get a little worried that if this is the only process for consultation on what could be quite a large step.... I'm not saying that I'm opposed, but I would just like to know that there have been more consultations with this very wide variety of people.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Actually, the time is up. I know Minister Brison did want to answer, but we'll have to do that in the beginning of the next round, if that's okay.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

It's up to you, Madam Chair.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

I think we will do that in the next round.

We'll go to Ms. Benson for three minutes.