Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2008

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

No. As a matter of fact, Mr. Holland, as a general principle, as a minister, but most especially in Public Works, I made it my practice to avoid the clientele that would potentially be doing business with the department. I tried my best to keep a respectful distance to avoid any reality or any appearance of any kind of untoward influence.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Before the recommendation was sent to you by the department, and this was in the memorandum of May 31, 2002, did you ever speak with Public Works officials about Place Victoria?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Before May 31, 2002, no, I don't believe so. I'd only been there for five days at that point.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Right. Did you ever speak to anyone about the Place Victoria file before Public Works sent a final recommendation to you?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

That would be before May 31, right? That's when their final recommendation was.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

If that was the date, yes.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

I think that was the date, yes. No, there was no conversation or lobby or anything of that nature whatsoever.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Did you ever ask or direct Public Works to begin direct lease negotiations with Magil Laurentian to renew the lease at Place Victoria?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

No, that was done several weeks before I became the minister.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I have no further questions. I'll turn it over to Mr. Telegdi.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Goodale, how many leases does Public Works handle in a year?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

I never counted them, Mr. Telegdi, but I've heard testimony before this committee that says it's at least 500 negotiations a year. There would probably be at any one time between 7,000 and 10,000 leases extant in the country. It's a big number.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I guess what I'm wondering about, having been around Parliament Hill now for quite a few years, is what level of detail the minister has in this. You've got a process in place, and I'm listening to some of the questions. I really do wish that Parliament Hill was the kind of place where ministers would have that level of detail, but I don't think you really do.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Certainly not the fine points, Mr. Telegdi. You're reliant upon the good professional staff who work for the department. They are the ones who conduct the economic analysis and give you the best advice they can possibly give. So it's not a matter of the minister being immersed in the minutiae. I had a rule of thumb in dealing with matters like this before the department. I would want to know from the officials if the rules had been followed and, secondly, if there was value for money.

In this case, the advice I received was that both of those things were satisfied.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I'll pass it over to Mr. Hubbard.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Very briefly, Mr. Chair, Place Victoria was rented back in history. People seem to think it's a political business. It goes back to Trudeau. It goes through Clark. It goes to Mulroney, and then it goes on to another. Where does the politics enter this? I have difficulty with that, Mr. Chair.

But to get back to the original, we're talking about fairness.Tenders were called for a lease, and the best, the lowest group that submitted a tender was awarded that contract at Place Bonaventure.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

That's right.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

And you say, Mr. Former Minister, that you had no complaints from the other bidders?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Certainly no complaints to my knowledge, no.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Then someone decided that maybe we could stay at Place Victoria and it came to your desk to sign off. I guess the arguments were that we could rent this other place to some other agency or some other group. So you have two leases. What you really did as the minister at the time was you extended the lease at Place Victoria at the request or concerns of the group. In terms of serving the regions of Quebec, it's an ideal place for anyone coming from the regions to be able to be right in downtown Montreal, almost in fact at the railway station.

So when you look at the costs, you seem to say to this committee today that maybe we really gained money as a result of the decision you and Madam Cochrane made, if you look at the extension of the lease of Place Victoria and the eventual leasing of the Place Bonaventure site.

Just before I finish, do you have any more information, Mr. Goodale, to give to this committee? I have trouble finding someone at fault, as Mr. Sweet says, someone to blame.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

I have just one comment, Mr. Hubbard, and it really goes to your original point. I do not recall, in relation to this transaction or others at Public Works, any exercise of political push and pull, and certainly not on this file.

To the best of my recollection, Mr. Drouin never spoke to me about it. His letter was there, and I responded to the letter in due course. There was no follow-on comment from either Mr. Boudria or Mr. Gagliano. The landlords were then, and are today, completely unknown to me. I wouldn't think it's my business to know them, quite frankly. The negotiation is conducted by the professionals in the department, and I stayed completely out of that.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Hubbard.

Mr. Williams, you have up to eight minutes.

Mr. Williams will be the last person.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Goodale, first, welcome.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Thank you.