Public Accounts Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

So in terms of this, do you still see the farmer who suddenly sets up two corporations to deal with his activities in agriculture? Do you see Charles Hubbard applying on two different programs, on two different activities, to your new...?

[Nada Semaan]

The program is whole farm. So even if there were five different commodities, we'd still—

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

So what you're saying is that it still continues to be to the disadvantage of the farmer who is trying to have a mixed operation.

[Nada Semaan]

It is whole farm.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Yes, it's whole farm.

It's the answer I was looking for, that you really haven't overcome that problem for the many farmers in this country who have mixed operations. When you take a big hit on one side of your account, you can't...because the average of the two means these new programs aren't to their benefit, whereas the neighbour who has a single operation can benefit greatly from some of your programs.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Sir, first of all, I think farming should be about making your money from the market. If a producer has different kinds of activities on their farm, and they're making money on these other commodities besides the ones with losses, then they're making their money from the farm. Whole farm is the policy choice of the ministers of agriculture—federal, provincial and territorial. And that remains.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

No, but it is a sad day, Madam Deputy, when farmers today have to set up two or three corporations to cover what they're doing. In fact, they're really at a great disadvantage if they have a mixed farming operation. The diversity that our department has advocated is actually not to the benefit of, or contrary to the best interests of, many people in our agricultural community.

Getting back to your employees, you talked about seasonal employees. Are they $12-an-hour people who are working for you, or are they paid a significant wage? We had complaints under CAIS, when someone with a large feedlot and many steers was calling Winnipeg, and the call came back to the him to ask, how many of those steers would calve in the spring? That becomes a little bit of a problem.

So are they good people to whom you're paying good wages, or are you simply putting together 100 people to handle the paperwork that comes to Regina or Winnipeg?

In fact, none of them, Mr. Chair, had calves the following spring.

[Nada Semaan]

When they are hired, our staff are offered very extensive training on the applications. In addition, they are mentored by a seasoned employee, so that we go through the work with them.

You talk about seasonal employees, but not everybody is seasonal. We do have some full-time employees as well, but we hire seasonal full-time and casual workers, who just come in for the peak seasons, because the applications generally come in at the end of the harvest, in the September to December timeframe. So in that season, we hire more people so that we can process applications more quickly. But they are trained, and that's often why they come back.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Are they paid well?

[Nada Semaan]

The general application is a PM1 application.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It's on the lower ranks of the public service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, a last question, for four minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chair, I think I have an admission to make here. I did my calculations based on $107 million in administrative costs and 150,000 applications. But I think you only process about 50,000 or 55,000 applications, and the rest are done provincially. Is that correct?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

No, actually the 150,000 was for the AgriInvest program.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, so you had 55,000 through CAIS.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

That was for CAIS. It depends on the year.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, so with $107 million in administrative costs, it works out to $2,000 per application, Mr. Chair.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

No, sir. They also do the other programs as well.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Oh, is that right? Okay.

Back to the conflict of interest, you hire seasonal employees. When a person is not working for the Government of Canada, they fill out a CAIS application. They get hired by the Government of Canada for the CAIS program and they're processing applications. Is that a conflict of interest in your guidelines?

[Nada Semaan]

Yes, it's a clear conflict of interest.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I see.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It is, and we have clearly—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So when somebody who is not an employee of the Government of Canada fills out a CAIS application, how can that be a conflict for the Government of Canada?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Sir, the code of ethics says in regard to post-employment practices that public servants will have to make sure they don't use the knowledge they gained working through the government in any way that would—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And how about pre-employment?