Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

Noon

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Colleagues, we're now starting round two. We can go five minutes.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have five minutes.

Noon

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to the issue of not really knowing how many people are in the country illegally or who these individuals are. This is the second time this has come up. It came up a couple of years ago, I guess, when we were dealing with the whole issue of social insurance numbers. The number approached a million, I think, at that time. There were more social insurance numbers in the country than what our population seemed to indicate should be out there. So we have no idea if we're dealing with a number of 20,000, 200,000, or 400,000. Is that correct?

Noon

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

If you're referring to people who are in the country illegally, no. The department knows the number of warrants that are outstanding against individuals, ordering them to leave the country. That database contains 63,000 names. Some of those people may no longer be in the country. They may have left voluntarily and not informed the agency. And the agency knows the whereabouts of 22,000 individuals.

Noon

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

These are people for whom there are warrants—people who have gone into the immigration system, gone through the applications, got turned down. But there are a lot of people who come into the country under a visitor's visa and stay on, and we have no idea what those numbers might be. So when it comes to people who are potentially illegally in the country, that's just one component. And then we have the issue of social insurance numbers—there are hundreds of thousands more numbers than potential workers.

At one time, the whole question of exit controls was raised. We're probably one of the only western countries that still hasn't put in place exit controls, a monitoring device. When people come into the country, we go through a passport control. It gets noted. But we don't do it on the other end, when people exit the country.

Has there been any attempt to take a look at what the cost would be to implement that type of regime?

12:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

If so, I am not aware of it. That would be a question to ask the government.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I just note that this is a gaping hole in our system. At the same time, we've invested resources that are quickly approaching $1 billion to provide handguns to the officers, but we haven't provided them with the tools to know how many people are here illegally.

Over the last year, under the current minister, we've had an increase in removals of 11.2%. However, criminal removals have increased by only 4.3%. We've increased the percentage of removals overall, but the percentage of criminal removals is only one-third of the total. Has there been an actual allocation or prioritization? I would think most Canadians would be interested to know whether an effort is being made to remove criminals, as opposed to people who are here with their families, etc. Was there any indication that this type of prioritization is taking place?

12:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Yes, we noted in the report that the agency was focusing its resources on the higher-risk individuals, as we would expect. I wasn't sure where the member's numbers came from. In exhibit 7.5, we note that in the last year about 15% of the removals were criminals. In the previous year, it was about 16% of a lesser number. I haven't done the actual calculation, but I would think that it's probably pretty close.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

In 2005-06, there were 1,817 criminal removals. In 2006-07, there were 1,895 criminal removals, a 4.3% increase. During the same time, the overall removals are 11,362 and 12,636, respectively. That's the 11.2%. If they are prioritizing that component, it's a diminishing return that we seem to be getting.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Could Mr. Wrzesnewskyj point out where he's pulling those numbers from?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I've had to use different tables, but I used exhibit 7.5, the one just referenced. The figures 1,817 and 1,895 are in the Auditor General's report. I didn't reference the chapter, so the member would have to read the whole report to find those numbers.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

That was a point of order.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

No, you were out of time before the point of order was made.

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Do you have any comments, Ms. Fraser?

12:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

No. I would just add that I think that's a question for the agency.

As to the removals, I'm not sure that one can draw those kinds of comparisons. If it's a whole family, there could be many more people on one removal. So I'm not sure that it's necessarily fair or correct to jump to the conclusion that it's a question of diminishing returns.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, five minutes.

May 8th, 2008 / 12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I wasn't clear on the crown corporations. Would the Trudeau Foundation have been one of the groups that you would have studied with your audit?

12:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

No. The foundation is not a crown corporation. It's considered a foundation, which government has funded.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I was just thinking that under chapter 7 it might have been a good thing, with the Trudeau Foundation, that there was a grant issued to somebody just to draw the connection between the 41,000 illegal immigrants in the country and the Pierre Trudeau legacy, to see if there was some connection between the two. But I guess we can't follow that path.

Mr. Ivison, with the National Post, was rather descriptive in describing the complex system we have in Canada for dealing with illegal immigrants and refugees. I think he made some sort of comment that Stephen Hawking would have found it very challenging himself to understand and appreciate the complexity of the system we've created in the country to deal with illegal immigrants. In some ways I think maybe the immigration consultants would almost see this as a gift from heaven for them, but I'm not exactly sure for the Canadian citizen that it's a gift from heaven.

Do you agree that the process that exists, that has accumulated over the years, is a fairly complex system of procedures to deal with illegal immigrants?

12:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Well, I would agree, Mr. Chair, that there is a fairly complex system of immigration into the country. People, obviously, were claiming refugee status in a number of avenues available to them, for example, to appeal decisions, etc. But that is of course both a combination of government policy and of legal rulings that have been made over time.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Auditor.

On the chapter dealing with aboriginal children.... I have a federal penitentiary in my riding. The last time I checked with the warden of the facility, I think something in excess of 70% of the inmates in the penitentiary were of first nations or aboriginal background. I know there are people out there who would criticize the court system and the justice system for the high rate of first nations in the penitentiary. I disagree with them.

To me, this is a symptom of a much greater problem than the justice system. It's like blaming the barometer for the weather, as far as I'm concerned, to blame the courts. I have worked in the court system, and I do believe that 99% of the people who are in penitentiaries are there because the evidence was there and they committed a crime. So it's a symptom of a much bigger problem, a failure of a system quite literally for a group of people.

Using the same approach here, if we have eight times the number of aboriginal children who are pulled out of their homes and put into foster care or other facilities and so on, one way you could interpret that is that the people who are removing children from the homes are being arbitrary and aren't using the same approach they would use in non-native homes or off the reserves. I guess the other interpretation is the same sort of problem we have with the high conviction rate for aboriginal people. Is this more a symptom of a much larger, complex social problem, or is it an indictment against the end part of the process, the people who have to deal with the social problems?

12:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Obviously the question is very complex, and there are a number of factors that would affect children who require these services. I would add, though--and I'm not sure that we've actually explicitly said it in the report or that we would be able to demonstrate proof--that we have to question if the way the funding from the federal government is given to agencies does not itself have an impact upon the way services are provided, in that the federal government will pay the costs for children in care but will not necessarily provide sufficient funding for preventative care. So the way to get care for children is to take them into care.

The way the funding is actually done may have a perverse effect to actually have increased the number of children who are in care. Perhaps if the funding formula is reviewed and takes into account the way provincial standards have changed in the way these services are delivered in provinces, one could perhaps question whether there would actually be more children and their families receiving preventative services, and then those children would not be taken into care.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

The next questioner is Mr. Lussier. Before I go to him, I understand Mr. Laforest wants to recognize and welcome the group we have in the back of the lobby.

Mr. Laforest.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to mention the presence of students from the Fernand-Lefebvre high-school from Sorel. They are visiting the Parliamentary Precinct with their MP, Mr. Louis Plamondon.

Welcome to all of you.

You wanted to see how a parliamentary committee operates. I can tell you it is extremely interesting. You are now at the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and our witness is Ms. Sheila Fraser, the Auditor General of Canada. I wish you a good visit in Ottawa.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Laforest.

Mr. Lussier, for five minutes.