Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was overtime.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hugh McRoberts  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Don Head  Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
Gordon Stock  Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Therefore, some institutions pose a higher risk than others.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

That's right, and depending on the design, the level of openness, and the best way to provide supervision, surveillance, and management of the inmates, our new deployment standards are used to make the determination as to how best to provide the right level of security.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

What you're saying is that considerably more overtime may be required at facilities with a larger inmate population and where more restrictions are in place. I'm trying to understand how overtime is managed. From what you're saying, it varies according to the nature of the facility. Correct?

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

Yes. Some of that is driven by design, but our new deployment standards that we're putting in place will alleviate a significant part of that. We had standards before and duty rosters, schedules for the staff, that did not provide the right coverage; therefore, there was overtime built into the operation. Now, with our new deployment standards that we're putting in place, we're addressing that. We've increased the number of what we call substitute officers, relief officers who are available in the institution to backfill staff, so that will address that.

Our new standards, our new rosters, will go a long way towards minimizing it, but one of the biggest pieces as well is filling the vacancies that we've had in our rosters for the last couple of years.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

As I understand it, in a new institution such as the one in Sept-Îles, which is located 1,000 kilometres from Montreal, normally, there are no problems because it is a new facility and the ratio of correctional officers to inmates is appropriate.

Moving right along, the amount of overtime mentioned here is enormous. I just want to be sure that these are not really false savings, in the case of institutions that are full to capacity, where, as you mentioned wings have been closed and the situation is more conducive to riots breaking out. As I understand it, aboriginals also have special needs which must often be taken into consideration. This could also explain the overtime. When problems with overtime are mentioned, this also brings to light some major concerns regarding the Auditor General's report. I'm not sure if we have truly examined every aspect of the situation. We have not looked at the problem from the standpoint of each individual facility.

Lastly, individual institutions do their own purchasing of products. I can see them buying clothing, but as far as food products are concerned, I'm not sure that shipping twenty-six hams from British Columbia to Sept-Îles is the most cost-effective way of doing business. I would imagine that institutions focus on doing their purchasing at the local level.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay.

Mr. Head.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

Again, as we go through this review and analysis of our food needs and the best way of being economical and efficient in procuring those goods, there will be times when we'll identify certain goods as better procured, and more efficiently and more cheaply procured via local purchases. The Auditor General wasn't suggesting that everything be a national purchase. Things that are more perishable are probably going to be purchased locally, as opposed to the other goods that can be maintained. But we have to finish that assessment to determine the right balance.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay.

Merci beaucoup, M. Desnoyers.

Mr. Weston, for five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Head, Mr. McRoberts, and Mr. Stock. Your comments have certainly captured the attention of this committee.

By way of general comment, it would seem, as Mr. Christopherson pointed out, that you have your priorities right. From what we've heard, we're not that concerned about security as much as we are about money management. That's where I would throw in my lot with Mr. Christopherson: that's where we would want it to be.

Secondly, in responding to Ms. Faille's questions, you indicated that the quality of food was good. I think as Canadians we like to know that our prisoners are being humanely treated. The same goes for the water.

We heard that the funds are generally sufficient. In answer to a question, you said you were well positioned to do the job based on the funds made available in Budget 2007-08. Mr. Head, that's good news.

Then of course there are deficiencies. You have an action plan in place and we've been able to review that. I think we all like the way you take responsibility. You said the onus was on you to see that you could work smarter and better.

Finally, you have a good command of the facts in response to all the questions. So that's comforting.

Given that there are management issues that are still a factor—which we have been discussing—I direct my question first to you, Mr. Head, and then to you, Mr. McRoberts.

We didn't see in the Auditor General's report, nor have we heard anything about, the corporate culture of Correctional Service Canada. What happens if somebody at the low end of the hierarchy sees ways to improve money management and to economize on the use of resources. Is it a corporate culture that encourages people to give you good ideas right up to the top?

Mr. McRoberts, from your perspective, did that come up? The only allusion I saw to that in the report was in paragraph 7.74 or 7.79, or around there, where there was some allusion to improvement generally, but we didn't see anything about that.

4:40 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

Thank you for the question. There are several things we've been doing as a result of our overall transformation agenda. One of them is opening up better lines of communication with all our staff across the country. As we've been going forward with various aspects of our transformation, we have been getting feedback, right from front-line staff, as to ideas they have about how we could do a practice or a procedure differently. Some of those have money implications; others do not—they are just good practices. As part of this transformation agenda, we have truly opened up the dialogue.

More directly now, as the commissioner, I get letters or e-mails on a regular basis from front-line staff, which has not been the practice in years gone by, either commenting on something we're doing or giving another suggestion. Through our transformation team, which we formed to help us move forward over the next years, we are sifting through those and looking at what options or opportunities exist, how they fit into the transformation agenda, how they fit into our financial management strategies, and even our human resource management strategies.

At the time of the audit—and I'll let the Auditor General staff speak for themselves—they would not have seen that, because we were just in the early stages of our transformation agenda.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Some people take the initiative in suggesting things. Before we let you off the hook, Mr. Head, do you ever take the initiative in asking for ideas from people throughout the organization?

4:40 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

Very much so. Just within the last couple of months I put the challenge out to my executive committee members, to our assistant deputy commissioners out in the regions, to the wardens and the district directors, asking them each to find two or three things we've been doing that don't add value to the organization and asking what it is we can stop. The question that was asked had a cultural component to it. Part of the culture we face is that people don't like giving up things they've always done before.

It's been a bit of a challenge, but we are starting to see those ideas. I personally put the challenge out to our senior executive and our senior managers across the country to bring forward two or three ideas each that we can look at.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

That's very gratifying.

Mr. McRoberts, did you see any evidence of that in the audit?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Hugh McRoberts

During the period of the audit, as we have pointed out.... The two relevant sections of the report, Mr. Chair, begin with paragraph 7.69 and go through to paragraph 7.79. To summarize them, we certainly understand that the focus of management is on custody and rehabilitation; those are two legs of the stool. The third leg of the stool, however, is the economic and efficient management of the operations.

During the period we were looking at in the audit, our view was that management was largely focused on the first two and was really not looking for opportunities to achieve economy and efficiency in its management of the operations. We felt this was an important issue, particularly given that CSC had previously told Parliament it had already exhausted its ability to reallocate existing resources to custody and rehabilitation. We were surprised that we didn't find analysis in support of that claim.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Christopherson, you have five minutes.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I have a couple of quick questions and then one a little more substantive.

I'd like to hear an assurance from you, assuming you can give one, that there's no study, review, consideration, or intent to privatize the Canadian correctional system.

4:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

We had that assurance, when the independent review panel was going on, from the government. The minister of the day—Minister Day—assured Canadians that this was the case. It is something that was of significant concern not only to us but to our unions. We had that assurance. There is no study going on, for our part, to privatize the service.

Having said that, we have some aspects of service delivered under contractual arrangement, such as, for example, some education services, some—

4:45 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Is that new?

4:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

No, it's been around for a while.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

That's fine; I was looking for change.

Also, I'd like, just for the record, an assurance that while you're doing the absolute numbers, as recommended by the Auditor General, you'll also take into consideration the issues I've raised of food security, local jobs and their impact, and the environment. You can't always put a number to it, but I want to hear you give me some assurance that those things will be evaluated when you crunch the numbers.

4:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

Most definitely. We'll make sure this is in our evaluation framework as we assess all these pieces.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Good. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you.

I have one final, substantive question.

I'm with Mr. Kramp. One of the toughest things was getting my head around the notion that you had never done this analysis. It didn't make sense, given all the pressures you have. It's an obvious one. I was really surprised.

I'm a little bit concerned, and here's why. Today you said, on page 3 of your remarks, “One of our key priorities is to continue to strengthen management practices”. That's the phrase you're giving to assure us that you got it this time.

Here's my concern. Back in 2007, when this plan was produced for 2008-09, here's what was said in it, on page 17:

Combining non-financial performance indicators and measures with its robust and rigorous financial and risk management frameworks will position CSC to evaluate its operational performance relative to the resources entrusted to the organization and to take the necessary actions to ensure the organization continues to achieve results for Canadians.

So it sounds as though this report got it. The words that are used to describe it on page 33 are headed “Priority: Strengthened Management Practices”—the same three words you used today, back in 2007. Not only that, but on page 24, under “Priorities, Result Commitments and Measurement Strategies” we find—oh, oh!—“strengthened management practices”.

The comments of your predecessor Mr. Coulter, the commissioner before you, in the second paragraph on page 7, say “strengthen management practices” and—the pièce de résistance—on page 5, from the minister: “This year, Correctional Service of Canada”, yada, yada, yada, “...and strengthening management practices”.

Here's my worry. It seemed that this report showed that you should have gotten the notion that this kind of macro-economics should be looked at. The words used over and over in that report were “strengthening management practices”. It didn't happen. And now, sir, you're here today giving us exactly the same words.

What assurance do we have that your words today are going to have more weight and meaning than the words we had back in 2007?

March 12th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada

Don Head

There are a couple of things, Mr. Chair, that we've done as a follow-up. They are things that were starting, or were to have started, earlier--simple things, such as that when our executive committee meets roughly every month, when we go through our presentations now, there is a section in the presentations made to us around economies and efficiencies.

So it's right in front of us; it's so blatant—it's in black and white. But it wasn't in the presentations that were being done previously. So that's there now.

The human resource management committee within the organization and the financial management committee in the organization are now chaired by me, as the commissioner within the organization.

Mr. Chair, it may sound rather cliché, but my word is my word, and I understand very clearly the intent of the Auditor General's report and the commitment that we made to Canadians through the reports on plans and priorities. At the end of day, I know I'm accountable to deliver on it. It may sound cliché, but for me my word is everything.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Shipley, you have five minutes, sir.