Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2009

[William Baker]

First of all, working with, initially, federal departments and agencies, we identify what are the critical sectors. We've also identified who are the federal leads. Obviously when it comes to the transportation sector, it's not us. It's Transport Canada, and we engage them to work with other levels of government as well as non-profit organizations, and in some cases, I'm sure, the private sector, to look at the plans to ensure the continuity of critical services inside the country.

I suspect—I have not been personally engaged in this—that this is indeed an elaborate process to get those in place. I can tell you that we have those plans for all of the critical sectors. To say that they are complete in every way, no. Work needs to continue on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, John. Your time is up. I was trying to get your attention, but your time is up. Thank you.

Ms. Crombie and Mr. Lee, five minutes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Since we're all talking about local municipal examples, I want to share with you that November 10 was the 30th anniversary of the Mississauga train derailment. And I think we'll all agree that there was an exemplary and impeccable demonstration of leadership by Mayor Hazel McCallion.

I have to say that I don't know where the leadership is going to come from on upcoming events like the 2010 Olympics and the G-8 and the G-20. Can you give us some confidence that there is an emergency response plan, and tell us who will be coordinating and leading the emergency preparedness, or our response, to ensure public safety for these events?

[William Baker]

Certainly.

When it comes, for instance, to the Olympics and the G-8 as well, those two events in particular, the Prime Minister has named a special coordinator for security planning, who is housed in the Privy Council Office. He is working with all of us and we are providing critical support to him, Mr. Elcock, in the development of very elaborate plans with respect to contingencies, response plans, and so on, with respect to the Olympics, the G-8, and so on. The accountabilities are very clear with respect to those events you have named, and we are implicated fully.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Will the emergency response plan be approved by then?

[William Baker]

I'm going to speak to the Olympics. It's the one that's probably most in sight.

We have been working with them. We've just conducted perhaps the most elaborate exercise that certainly I'm aware of, as a public servant, called Exercise Gold, which took place over a week and actually longer, involving all jurisdictions--VANOC and so on--to look at different scenarios. We were there. I was there. Daniel was there constantly to look at how we respond to all manner of hazards--natural disasters, terrorist-type activities, and so on--to see if we have a structure in place that works on a timely enough basis.

That was not the first exercise. That was the final exercise, Exercise Gold, and we were all encouraged by the results.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Who ultimately is responsible for imposing leadership decisions and taking on the lead? Who will be the ultimate decision-maker?

[William Baker]

With respect to the Olympics or--

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

In emergency response planning. Hazel McCallion rallied the troops. She provided unprecedented leadership. Who is that one individual who will champion any emergency response?

[William Baker]

It depends. In the case of an event that occurs in a municipality--

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

On a national level, obviously.

[William Baker]

On a national level under the Emergency Management Act, which builds on the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Act, the Minister of Public Safety has overall responsibility for managing at a national level, and part of that is of course supporting the work of provinces, whether it's through disaster financial aid or through working on joint business continuity plans. So in terms of the federal government, the Minister of Public Safety obviously has the responsibility in that regard. But if you look at the experience with any particular event, there is going to be the involvement of many.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

In terms of chemical, biological, radioactive, nuclear, explosive, etc., do you feel that the appropriate protocols and policies will be in place should we ever face that sort of threat?

[William Baker]

Work is continuing. Pardon the acronym, but CBRNE has been part of our planning exercises. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which is of course an agency within the public safety portfolio reporting to the minister, has overall responsibility for dealing with those incidents.

We are busy doing some additional work cataloguing the capacity available in the country to respond to those events, because they could be potentially disastrous. And that also includes making sure we are fully aware of the capacity south of the border that might be available to help us.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Lee would like to ask a question as well.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

The audit shows alarmingly high rates of staff turnover within your ministry. We're all curious. Is there anything the committee should know about why you've got turnover rates that are huge? That's got to impair your work and it has to be related to the history here. But there must be something you can tell us about why, and if you can't, then maybe you have some more homework to do.

[William Baker]

Mr. Chair, first let me make an observation and then consider the way forward.

The statistics quoted in the Auditor General's report are correct. The statistic about movement of employees is all-inclusive. For 2008-09, 13% of the employees in the emergency management area actually left the Department of Public Safety or left emergency management but stayed elsewhere in public safety. If you include all of the churn, that's pretty normal. Now, 13%, I would suggest, is high. My experience at the Canada Revenue Agency is that we were at around a 5.5% to 6% departure rate.

As to what we're going to do in that regard, first of all it's about having a clear way forward for emergency management, a concrete set of plans and deliverables, an accountability framework that lines up around it, having the right people in place—we've been doing some staffing in the emergency management area to ensure that we have the team to get the job done—and recognizing and rewarding those who are delivering the goods. I think that's the kind of work environment you create to try to mitigate this in the future.

I as deputy and the executive management team have had good discussions about what we can do in public safety and emergency management as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Mr. Shipley, you have five minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

I may just share my time with my colleague, if I run out...

I was wondering, witnesses, where the federal government sits in terms of authority for developing the emergency plans, when working with the provinces and the regions. I think it was clarified that this is a voluntary process. It's like the three-legged stool a little bit: if you pull one leg out, likely the emergency plan on the broad scale isn't going to work very well.

Where does the authority come from for the federal government, in terms of having the provinces and the municipalities or regions come onside?

[William Baker]

Looking at the Constitution Act and the division of responsibilities, this isn't really a question of pure authority. The authority for emergency management primarily rests with provinces, unless, of course, it's a matter of federal jurisdiction, federal properties, or something in the national interest that transcends provincial borders. So the strategy really is to work with a common interest, with provinces that all recognize the risks that are there, on how we can best work together to provide our combined effort to address these.

Municipalities are not shy in asking for provincial help. We saw floods in British Columbia recently. Provinces are not shy—nor should they be, and we certainly wouldn't want them to be—in seeking federal assistance. That's recognized. It's on that basis that we move forward. We're all looking at the same thing at the end of day, and for the same citizens.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Yes, and I respect the fact that everyone wants to have an emergency plan. It's new in some areas. There is a belief that we have an emergency plan across Canada, maybe for every province, but also municipality; yet it isn't there. Some of the larger areas have more resources to do one. It is certainly an understanding that we will have one, and it's the best thing for Canadians, no matter where you are.

Where does a clear delineation of responsibilities lie, and who determines it, in terms of the municipal, provincial, and federal responsibilities?

[William Baker]

Mr. Chair, as I understand it, events typically occur locally first, whatever may happen—a flood, an explosion, or whatever—and then there's a process whereby successive levels of government are engaged at the request of the other levels of government. The municipality would ask for provincial help; the province could come to us.

Suffice it to say, though, that no one is sitting around waiting for the phone to ring on these. The reason we have a regional structure of emergency management personnel across the country is that they're in regular contact with provincial and, to a degree, municipal emergency management personnel, so that we can deal with this in real time and try to provide the assistance that is required.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you. I think that helps explain the process to everyone a little bit; that those requests, I think likely 98% of the time, unless the event has some immediate national context to it—or a high percentage of the time—will always start at the municipal or local level and work their way up.

[Stephen Baker]

Absolutely.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

So that everyone understands the federal plan, it may kick in instantaneously, or it may not kick in for three or four days. Would that be true?