Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
I said I was only going to give you about 10 or 15 seconds, and it was considerably more.
Mr. Kramp.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I welcome our guests.
Most of my background has been in the private sector, where if you want something done you make a decision and get on with it. Generally, the government is viewed as moving at a snail's pace in most activities, but I absolutely have to eat those words at a time like this.
Quite frankly--and I say this to Transport in particular--you did an absolutely incredible job. It was incredible: the rate of implementation, the establishment of the parameters necessary, and the level of accountability. Quite frankly, I think a lot of us were sort of holding our breath, knowing it was an enormous task.
So here's what I would like to know: how did you particularly balance that need for speed with accountability? What best practices could we hear from you so we might be able to apply them in other domains?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Thank you very much for the comments. I must say it's been an honour for me, Mr. Forster, and all of our team that we got to work on something very important for the Canadian economy. It has been an honour, and yes, it was hard work, but we're very happy that we had the opportunity to do this.
For some best practices, first of all, it was very important to involve our internal audit function early on in the process. They did readiness assessments of our programs. It's usually good to anticipate the problems you're going to have, assess your readiness, and fix your problems before you run into problems. It's pretty simple, but it's a very important best practice that we will employ for years to come.
The other issue is that we have a fully functioning external audit committee. They're external members and they ask us tough questions, but because they are from outside the government, they have a different view of things. They have been part of our control framework and they have been asking us pretty challenging questions, which always results in improvements.
Another issue is, as the Auditor General mentions, that we used an information management system, so all our applications can come online, but also, the particular database flags the problems we're going to have. If, for example, a project was supposed to start at a certain date and suddenly it's slipping by six months--out of 6,000 projects, you can't do this by hand--it pops up to say that you should look at this project because there may be a problem. It gives us a control mechanism.
As for other best practices, risk management was a real issue, because we had a lot of money going through and tight deadlines. You can make mistakes. We had accepted that we can make mistakes, but the fact we had a good sense of the risks and the mitigation strategies in the department was a huge, huge help to us. Another one was that before we submitted anything for approvals, we had internal control processes that went through and chaired by Mr. Forster. They approved every project in terms of the conditions and whether they met those. One by one, every one of them was reviewed by a panel.
The last thing is that without the partnership with the municipalities and the provinces, we could never have done this. Huge credit goes to them. We were the federal arm for the infrastructure programs, but they were the real winners.
Noon
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
That's great. Thank you very much. Certainly the lesson is well learned. If we can just spread the good news in the way we go on, I think we can all benefit from that.
I take a look at the projects in my riding. We had 29. I can honestly say that 26 of them are either completed and/or in the final stages now. Two are just slightly behind. Only one is in jeopardy, but I think it's a small one, and it could be completed in a couple of months. Do you think it's fair to say that you can extrapolate that kind of ratio is across the country, or would this be...? As an example, every member here should know darn well exactly the status in their own ridings, so I'm assuming.... Have you found regional variances in that or is that just a personal knowledge one only...?
November 16th, 2010 / noon
Associate Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada, Department of Transport
No, I think that's a reasonably good assessment. But as I said, it varies across the country. Our general sense at the moment, depending on the data we get, is around 3% to 5%, so the vast majority of projects will come in by the program deadline. Each one has some different reasons why.... I know of a project where they were going to build a pedestrian bridge, for example, and when they did consultations with the community, the community didn't want it. That delayed the project, but we then help and replace projects that can't go through.
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, everyone.
Just off the top of my head, the federal budget of Canada is around $280 billion, and that includes some $47 billion under the economic action plan. We're talking here about one sixth of the budget of Canada going to economic stimulus. I don't know whether you'll be able to answer my question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
How much money is left in the economic action plan? My question is for the representatives of the Office of the Auditor General or of the Department of Finance.
Noon
Bloc
Noon
Associate Deputy Minister and G7 Deputy for Canada, Department of Finance
In September, the government indicated that of the $29 billion for fiscal year 2010-2011, $28.6 billion had been committed, virtually all of the money.
Noon
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Apparently, there is around $400 million left, a tiny portion of the fund.
I would like to know whether municipalities, provinces or stakeholders can still apply under this stimulus package.
Noon
Associate Deputy Minister and G7 Deputy for Canada, Department of Finance
[Editor's Note: Inaudible] for Infrastructure Canada.
Noon
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
First of all, the program is ending. It was always meant to be timely and targeted, so the March 31 deadline is coming soon. If there is any money left, it would usually be because a province or a municipality wants to swap a project--for example, if a project is no longer a priority. It could be anything. They come to us and we have been swapping projects, the things that are not making progress, for something they need. Right now we're sitting on having committed all our money to these projects, so whenever flexibilities happen, we swap.
We're finding across the country, especially in a number of western provinces, that sometimes the estimates they have given us--and they had received--were larger than actual costs of the project. They're coming in under the costs. If they end up getting some flexibility, we're making sure that the province and the municipalities can fill that gap so they don't leave any money on the table. Because all of these projects are important to the communities and actually create work and jobs for Canadians. We're showing all the flexibility, but time is starting to run out.
If you need a specific number, I don't have it, but we can get it for you.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
In any case, I think that we have an idea of where we are headed.
My question is for the officials from the Auditor General's Office.
At the bottom of the column on the left in the table on page 28 of chapter 1 of your report, it says “Investing in Federal Buildings”. Beside that, you have number 21. I am a bit confused. There are 3,390 projects and 351 buildings. Are we talking about 21 samples that were taken from the 351 buildings that account for close to 3,390 projects? Is that correct?
12:05 p.m.
Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In this case, how we did our sampling was first of all by building. Then we picked a project within that building. Out of the 351 buildings, we looked at 21 buildings, and then picked a project in that building as our sample item.
12:05 p.m.
Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That's right.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Very well.
Do those buildings cover all of Canada or a specific region? There must be some enormous buildings, given the ratio of 351 to 3,400.
12:05 p.m.
Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chair, it is across the country that we drew our sample from. Depending on the building, there can be 100 projects for one building, in some cases. Some of the projects are very small. Other projects are quite large.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here today and sharing this important information with us.
Also, through you, thanks to all the officials in the Canadian government who work with you. I want to thank you for all the hard work and the late hours you've all put in to make sure these projects proceed. They're very important for our country, and I think we can see the results in our economy today because of the very diligent work that you and your staff have done in getting these projects under way.
I come from the city of Mississauga, and I can tell you that I had many discussions with Mayor Hazel McCallion about the deadlines required under the projects and the eligibility of the projects that the City of Mississauga was putting forward. She and her city manager, Janice Baker, and the city council and all their staff took these criteria very seriously.
She said to me on a number of occasions in those conversations that she would not gamble with the money of the citizens of Mississauga. She runs the largest debt-free city in Canada and probably the world. She's very proud of that, and we're very proud of it, and she doesn't want to see the city going into any debt if projects aren't completed on time.
So she took it very seriously: they moved extremely quickly once these projects were approved. In fact, within weeks of the approvals in June of 2009, I attended some projects that were under way. One of the projects was rebuilding seriously deteriorated sound walls around neighbourhoods. In early July of 2009, the shovels were in the ground.
The contractor for that project, which I think was just under $2 million for all of the sound walls across the city, mentioned to me that he had hired 33 employees to do that installation and that a number of other employees had been hired at the company that manufactures the materials for the sound walls that were being installed. I was able to see these things under way.
You mentioned, Ms. Baltacioglu, that there were over 6,200 projects approved across Canada. That's a staggering number. I believe you also said that 99% of those projects were under way and that one per cent or thereabouts might be at risk.
Could you tell us whether you have any status on the Mississauga projects? Are any of them at risk?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
I'm not sure if we have data down to the municipality level, but we definitely can get you the data. Just to recognize the mayor, yes, absolutely this mayor is very well known to us and greatly appreciated.
But that is just one example. Our experience has been phenomenal across the country. The mayors and the municipalities took this very seriously.
We will get you the Mississauga projects. We have province-by-province updates, but we don't have the municipalities.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
That's very good. I appreciate that. I believe there were more than 138 projects approved in Mississauga. The vast majority of them are under way, and many are already completed. That's certainly my understanding. The mayor gives me a fairly regular update on these. That's very helpful.
This is a question for the Auditor General's office.
Having each project comply with the eligibility and legal requirements is obviously important, and I understand that in preparing your report you reviewed a sample of 410 projects from nine different programs and examined whether these approved projects met eligibility requirements. Could you tell us what you found in your sample, generally speaking, when these projects were reviewed?