Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

4 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

I'm sorry, Mr. Godin, your time has expired. Thank you very much.

We go on to our next speaker in rotation.

Mr. Shipley, you have the floor, sir.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and to Mr. Ferguson for being with us today.

I went through your CV, and I think it's an incredible CV in terms of the breadth of commitment and also the knowledge that you have.

I'm looking at what your premier has said:

He's outstanding, he's a leader, and quite frankly that's one of the reasons why he became deputy minister of finance in New Brunswick. It's certainly a difficult time in the province's history. I value the integrity and credibility of the man and the quality of the work he completed when he was auditor general in New Brunswick.

I don't think those words would come lightly from any leader of any province or from any leader of a country. I'm going to focus, Mr. Ferguson, on what you've done, to help us understand how some of the things are going to lead to what you are nominated to do.

Knowing that you are the former auditor general of New Brunswick and were also the comptroller general in New Brunswick, I wonder whether you could help us understand a little about those positions provincially, their functions, and how they are similar to and how they may differ from the positions federally.

4 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The comptroller in New Brunswick is responsible for the preparation of the province's financial statements, the operation of the province's financial information system, and the operation of internal audit activities for the province as a whole. I think those types of functions are consistent among comptrollers throughout the country and consistent with the comptroller's office in the federal government, particularly on the internal audit side and in terms of making accounting policies for the government to follow.

As I said, one of the biggest responsibilities, actually, of the comptroller in New Brunswick is operating the province's financial information system, particularly in its general ledger and accounts payable system, which is a large and complex system that operates for the entire government.

That gave me a certain amount of experience in the world of information technology and of having to implement accounting systems. Auditors, whether they're internal auditors or auditors general, have to do audits of information systems as well, so as I say, I have some background in information systems and in having to implement information systems.

That's fundamentally what the role of the comptroller was in the province of New Brunswick. Particularly for such matters as policy setting and internal audit, it is very consistent with the comptroller general position for the federal government.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you very much.

You have touched on a couple of issues that we in this committee have dealt with under public accounts.

To follow through from the position of comptroller general, then, to the position of auditor general in New Brunswick, could you tell me a little bit about how or whether one prepares you for the other?

4:05 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

As comptroller, as I said, I was responsible for internal audit. Many of the internal audits that we did were in fact performance audits, so they were very similar to the performance audits that an auditor general would perform. The difference would be in the audience that receives the report. A report from a comptroller and internal auditor is designed for the management of government, whereas an auditor general's reports are designed to be presented in the federal case to Parliament and in the provincial case to the New Brunswick legislature.

I had familiarity with doing audits and doing performance audits. The role of comptroller was one of responsibility for preparing financial statements. The role of auditor general was to audit those same sets of financial statements. So I understood how financial statements were prepared. Then, as I said earlier, as comptroller I was on the receiving end of audit recommendations from previous auditors general, and as auditor general I had to then make recommendations. That helped me to formulate some ideas about how recommendations should be made from an audit perspective.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you very much.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Your time has expired. Thank you very much.

The next speaker is Mr. Dubé. You have the floor, sir.

October 31st, 2011 / 4:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank Mr. Ferguson for being here with us today.

I think that everyone acknowledges the fine reputation of your future office, the legacy of Ms. Fraser. She has provided exceptional service, to Quebeckers in particular. I'm thinking among others of the revelations in connection with the sponsorship scandal, probably one of the better-known issues, especially in Quebec, to come out of her work as Auditor General.

This file involved francophones, for the most part. I understand that translation services are available, but in the final analysis, you have to be able to study those files and understand what is going on, in particular the interaction between people. You have to be able to verify the work. You have to have a good understanding of French.

How could you work on a file of that scope, one that involved Quebec in particular, if one were to come before you?

4:10 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

The first thing to recognize is that the Office of the Auditor General of Canada has significant capacity, and in both languages. The importance of the issues to any part of the country will not be affected by my moving into the role. As I say, the capacity is there, within the office, to deal with those types of issues.

I fully recognize that the issue you are raising is about communication with this committee, Parliament, and—presumably through the media—to the citizens. That is the weakness I have identified. That is what I am committed to working on and improving my ability in, so that I can deliver the message effectively. Again, I will admit to you and agree with you that at the moment I would not be able to deliver that message in French—I am having trouble delivering it in English—at the moment. It's certainly my commitment to get to a point of proficiency such that I would be able to do that.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

I salute your efforts and I salute the work of the public servants who work in your offices. However, the fact remains that you cannot learn a language from one day to the next.

As my colleague, Mr. Godin, mentioned, you spent 11 years in a position within an officially bilingual province. When you meet the media, you will be representing the Office of the Auditor General on behalf of all Canadians, be they French Canadians, Quebeckers or English Canadians.

Your work is going to begin immediately, before you will have had time to learn French. If you are chosen, your work is going to begin right away. How are you going to accelerate this learning process, since over a period of 11 years you did not reach an acceptable level for the federal public service?

4:10 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

First of all, I am not a beginner. As I mentioned, I am determined and I have committed to learning French because I recognize the importance of communicating in both official languages. I commit to improving my French,

and I will continue to do that.

As I've said, I am not a beginner; I do have a certain proficiency in French. It is still not good enough, and I still need to improve it, and my commitment will be to improve it.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Time has expired.

Now we go to Mr. Hayes.

You, sir, have the floor.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ferguson, welcome, and congratulations on your nomination.

I too am endeavouring to learn the French language, and hopefully some day we'll be able to carry on a fluent conversation together. That doesn't diminish my capability to be a member of Parliament, nor do I think it will diminish your capability to be an auditor general; your time will come. And congratulations on the progress you've made so far. You're a lot farther ahead than I am, I guarantee you.

You were the auditor general of New Brunswick for five years. How would you say that experience helped you to prepare for the job of Auditor General of Canada?

4:10 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

The basic work is the same. In terms of financial statement audits, performance audits, compliance audits, special reviews, the fundamental work that is done is the same. An audit is a process, a process that involves identifying topics that need to be examined, identifying the objectives, the criteria for conducting the audit, gathering the evidence, assessing the evidence, and producing a report. So an audit is a process. The difference, of course, is the scale and complexity of some of the federal departments compared with the provincial departments.

On the other hand, the auditor general in New Brunswick has a small group of people. I know the number will sound small to federal people, but New Brunswick still has a budget of $8 billion. That's still a lot of money that has to be audited. And as auditor general in New Brunswick, because of the small size of the office we had, I had to be quite involved in the audits myself. That gave me a lot of experience of performance audits and financial audits, not just as the auditor general but also very much as a player in designing and selecting the audits, conducting the audits, and in fact writing the audit reports.

Fundamentally, the work is the same. The difference, really, is the scale.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

I agree with what you're saying in terms of the function of the audit. I'm a CGA myself and haven't had a lot of experiencing in auditing, but I have enough to understand exactly what you're saying.

In terms of the audit function itself, there's a test function, the compliance function, and what we refer to as the value-for-money function. Do you have equal experience in all levels of auditing, or would you say your expertise is in one specific area?

4:15 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

No, I would say it cuts across all types of audits.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

You make reference in your opening statement to your approach and your performance being a matter of public record. I know it's difficult to pat oneself on the back, but in a position like this I guess one has to. When you stand there in a job interview, sometimes you're the only person who's going to pat yourself on the back. But can you elaborate a little on what you referred to as your “approach” and give me some idea about it?

4:15 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I would describe my approach as one of being fair, of trying to make sure I understood the issues in the particular audit, and of making sure that the auditors recognized that when making a recommendation, the recommendation needs to be something that can be implemented. I would always challenge the auditors, when they were making a recommendation, by asking, if you were on the receiving end of that recommendation, how would you implement it?

My technical approach wasn't different from anybody else's. I feel that I was fair in the approach. I delivered the tough messages when the tough messages needed to be delivered. And as I say, I think my performance is a matter of public record. I feel very good about the support I have right now in New Brunswick and the very nice things that a number of people in New Brunswick have been saying about me and about my performance when I was auditor general. That again is a matter of public record. People have said that I conducted myself in those five years with integrity, and I am very proud of that.

I am also very proud of the output we produced in that time period. Now that I am back inside the provincial government as Deputy Minister of Finance, it has been quite heartening to see the number of times that departments are coming forward with changes to their programs or changes to what they are doing and are referring back to reports of the auditor general from the time when I was auditor general.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Mr. Ferguson. This is already a minute and a half over time. I wanted to let it go on, but it's getting to that point. I'm sure you'll get another opportunity to finish your thought. I apologize, sir. It's necessary to move on.

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

Monsieur Bélanger, you now have the floor, sir.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Mr. Ferguson, I sat here for a reason you will soon understand. I could not help but notice that to answer Mr. Saxton's question in French and then to reply to another one from Mr. Dubé, you consulted your text. Can you answer in French without reading from your text?

4:20 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

I have prepared some statements in French because I was expecting some questions about my French language capability. So I prepared some of those in French.

My capabilities in French are more in terms of reading and understanding than of conversation. It is in conversation that I still have the weakness, and that's what I still have to work on.

Certainly in this type of environment I wouldn't yet be able to carry on a conversation.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I sat close enough to you to make sure that you could hear me. I wanted to know if you could understand me without having to listen to the interpreters. Can you?

4:20 p.m.

Nominee for the position of Auditor General of Canada, As an Individual

Michael Ferguson

I'm sorry. I had already put the earpiece in before, so—

4:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

That answers my question.

Mr. Ferguson, I heard you say earlier that you did not apply for the position, that it was a search firm that suggested you do it. Is that correct?