Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Dicerni  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Michelle d'Auray  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yaprak Baltacioglu  Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
John Forster  Associate Deputy Minister, Infrastructure Canada, Department of Transport

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

No, of course; it was not a parallel private system, I can assure members of Parliament here. It was a way to get from project advocacy to project selection. I shared all that information and the process that was used with the Auditor General. She opined about that, and I accept her opinion. She said there were better ways to do things than the way selected, but she also said that every penny was accounted for and went to its intended purpose.

We can always do better, and in this case we could do better, for sure.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I'm having difficulty understanding what you're saying. You're telling us that it wasn't a parallel private system? But we had an official system, which the Auditor General had the opportunity to investigate, and another system that she did not have access to. This is what we call a parallel system.

I'd like to go back to the matter of Mr. Cossette. There has also been talk of Mr. Dodds. There's actually a list. According to the email we obtained, some 12 to 15 public servants or members of government were involved in the process.

You accepted the Auditor General's report. Point 2.8 of the report indicates the following: "Senior officials were not able to provide us with any information and said their input had not been sought as part of that process."

We saw that public servants, including Mr. Cossette and Mr. Dodds, were involved and could have spoken to the Auditor General, but that didn't happen.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

No. I think what I find embedded in your question is the opinion that the entirety of what was being discussed was the G-8 legacy fund. The G-8 legacy fund was a small part of organizing for a summit.

There was policing. There was making sure people felt welcome.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Clement…

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

There were all of the preparations at the actual site.

So those individuals were involved in things other than the G-8 legacy fund.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

No, no. In the emails from Mr. Dodds that we obtained, we noted the involvement of Mr. Cossette, Ms. Forth, Ms. Nichols, Ms. St-Jean and Ms. St-Pierre through various duties. We have the names of people who were involved in the Local Area Leadership Group process, which was the parallel process. These same people, according to the Auditor General, were not involved in the process. In fact, the Auditor General couldn't find a way to report what they had done.

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Yaprak Baltacioglu

I would like to clarify the involvement of two officials you've mentioned, Mrs. Nichols and Mrs. Hirshberg. They are Infrastructure Canada officials who were responsible for administering the 32 projects.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I don't necessarily want to talk about the role of the specific individuals. We have a long list of names. You are talking about individuals, but I want to talk about the fact that senior officials were involved in the Local Area Leadership Group process. But these same people were questioned by the Auditor General and said that they had no involvement in the process.

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

Mr. Dodds and other FedNor collaborators participated in this famous meeting that you have the minutes for.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

But there were many meetings, not just one.

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

What I'm trying to say is that taking part in a meeting doesn't mean that these people were necessarily involved in making a subsequent decision. They were there because it was part of their job to contribute to the discussion. As Minister Clement said, quite a lot of things happened with respect to the G8.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Don't you agree that if the Auditor General asks them questions about their involvement and asks them if they were consulted during the process, they should answer "yes" rather than "no", since this was the case? Actually, they said that they had not been consulted during the process. But they were consulted; you just said so.

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

No, no. What I said was that they attended a meeting, maybe two meetings. They were there as public servants because FedNor is responsible for tourism in northern Ontario. There's a difference between sitting at a table and being involved in the decision-making process.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I wasn't talking about the decision-making process; I said that they were consulted during the process.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Mr. Caron, your time has expired.

Mr. Kramp, you have the floor, sir.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly to our guests gathered here, without doubt and without exception let me congratulate all of the officials who are here today. When we talk about the stimulus plan, the knowledge infrastructure, and the legacy fund--literally it is without parallel in Canadian history for efficiency, effectiveness, and accountability.

I know that most Canadians definitely share that view. They are very thankful that our officials, our civil service, and our ministers, in a time of extreme economic duress, acted in such an accountable manner, let alone expeditiously.

So I am deeply disturbed, quite frankly, when the official opposition have repeatedly stated that officials misled the Auditor General. I think it's disturbing. I'm very proud of the work of our professional civil service and the ministers on this.

I'd like some comment on the statement made by the opposition that the Auditor General has been misled by the officials gathered here today.

Perhaps I could even have a response from each one of you, very quickly.

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Our department was the responsible department for administering this fund. If you look at the e-mails that are in the system, which some honourable members have mentioned, they are conversations with various proponents about costs, contribution agreements, and basic program administration. That is exactly what our role is, and that's what we were supposed to do.

Infrastructure Canada officials did not participate in the local area leadership group meetings. They were not in those meetings. Our engagement would be with the actual 32 projects.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Kramp, I can't argue with your good judgment and your conclusions, but one thing I would say with respect to the public service is that it's awfully difficult for them to defend themselves against partisan attacks from one political party. I think when that happens, it's up to ministers to just underline the great work that they did.

I think in the height of the economic downturn, if you ever needed an example about how important it is to have a strong government, a strong public service, it was the results of the economic action plan and the gargantuan effort that the federal public service undertook with local public service and with provincial and territorial public service.

They did an outstanding job, they deserve all the credit, and I'll take any concerns on their involvement on this issue with respect to Infrastructure Canada.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Certainly I would like to say the same thing, that they acted in an exemplary manner.

As I say, if there are any things that the Auditor General suggested that there be improvements to, I take those to heart. That's my responsibility.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Thank you very much.

The time has expired for this hearing. We have business to move to.

I will thank our guests, Minister Baird, Minister Clement, and the government officials. Thank you very much for being here. We appreciate your time. Thank you.

We'll suspend for two minutes and then reconvene dealing with Mr. Saxton's motion.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

I call the meeting back to order.

I remind everyone we're still in public session.

We are about three minutes away from losing our mandate to do any business. By unanimous consent, we can agree to stay until we've completed the work at hand, or you can put a time limit on it.

I need some kind of unanimous agreement, or we're done in three minutes.

Mr. Saxton.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Why don't we go five-minute intervals, and for now just approve five minutes?

5:25 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Are we okay with that?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

However, we do have a number of--