Public Accounts Committee on April 24th, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, Mr. Kramp. I will underscore the fact that as a vice-chair of this committee, you're a veteran in your own right. Let me clarify though, I was saying that this is the second time that we've started a chapter without the Auditor General coming. That is accurate, if this motion carries.

My point is that this is a trend that is not acceptable to me as the chair. Above the politics of this, that process—I don't care who the government is—while I'm in this chair, that's not the way we should be doing business, and I'm making it very clear, Mr. Kramp, something is going to give. This will be the last time that I chair a meeting where a chapter is considered and the Auditor General doesn't come in first and present that report.

That's my point. Either the government gives, or I give, but this will not happen again while I'm in the chair.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

The chair is the master of his own destiny.

I advise the chair that the chair does not dictate. The chair runs along, he operates the meeting, and he convenes the meeting in an impartial fashion. He's certainly entitled to his opinion, as is everyone else on this, and I can respect that. But I would also ask the chair to respect the principles of the rights of the committee as a whole as well.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I do, and that's why this vote is being conducted while I'm the chair. The government has a majority, and if they use it, they will have decided that the AG will not be coming the first time.

And I'm not trying to engage myself in forcing that change. I'm expressing my opinion, not in a partisan way but from the point of view of the longest-serving parliamentarian on this committee. And I am making it clear that it will not happen again while I'm in the chair, which means that either the government changes their ways, or I step down in principle. But this will not happen again.

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the spirit of cooperation, the government would like to suggest that if the opposition wishes to make an amendment, a friendly amendment, to my motion, which would state that the Auditor General alone would come this Thursday, and that the witnesses that I mentioned in my motion would then come on Tuesday—that's the only amendment—then that would be acceptable to the government.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay. Let's try the waters.

Mr. Allen, are you open to that?

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Let me just say that I appreciate the government's overtures, and I'm willing to move that amendment to their motion in the spirit of getting this thing under way. I appreciate the Auditor General coming first.

I understand folks being frustrated, as we all are about this. Let me just say, as I've said in the past, that the way to avoid this frustration, and I look to the government side, is to reconstitute a steering committee that actually could have done this in advance and hammered it out, whatever length it took. And we could have actually come here and ratified it. We could have avoided all of this, including last Thursday.

I leave it in your hands to reconstitute that committee so that perhaps we can move forward.

I will indeed move the amendment, as Mr. Saxton suggested, that the Auditor General come on Thursday, April 26, and that the other witnesses outlined in his main motion would then be called for Tuesday. And obviously, we'll have other planning parts, as the government suggested we might have. We might have a discussion. We have a few minutes left.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Very good. If everybody is in agreement then, what we have is an amendment to Mr. Saxton's motion. I'll just keep it as an amendment at this point to keep it nice and clean and crisp.

The amendment is that the Auditor General would come in on Thursday, with appropriate staff, and the following Tuesday, the main motion witness list would appear.

Mr. Allen, are you satisfied that I have reflected your motion?

Very good.

Mr. Byrne, you have the floor on the amendment, sir.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sure it won't be lost on anyone that this was, in style and in substance, the motion I already presented to the committee, which the government voted down. I had asked for the Auditor General to appear first. Following that, we would hear from the government's witnesses. And following that, I would concede that I did add that we would then hear from the officials at a subsequent meeting. I also added that all witnesses would appear in panels.

To be clear here, that was, in essence, proposed already, and the government already voted it down. To have the Auditor General appear first appeared in my motion, which the government voted down.

I will also add, Mr. Chair, in support of the notion of panels to allow clear testimony to come forward and good questions—specific and targeted questions—in a timely way, and good answers, I will refer to the committee meeting transcript from last Thursday and Mr. Daryl Kramp.

It began with you, Mr. Chair, at 3:40 p.m. on Thursday, when you acknowledged Mr. Kramp. Mr. Kramp gave a quick statement, and he went on to say:

I will actually agree with Mr. Byrne on a few things. The last thing we need is a whole group of witnesses coming in, eight or nine witnesses at one point, and not be able to dig down and drill down when we should and when we need to.

That's the quote from Mr. Kramp from the transcript of this committee meeting.

The last thing we need is a whole group of witnesses coming in, eight or nine witnesses at one point, and not be able to dig down and drill down when we should and when we need to.

I would ask if we could amend the motion, Mr. Chair. I would propose a further amendment, which is that witnesses appear as panels, with no more than two witnesses per panel, and that each panel appear for a minimum of one hour.

I am delighted that Mr. Kramp agrees with that suggestion.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

That motion is in order so I will accept it. It's an amendment to the amendment, what we call a subamendment.

On the amendment to the amendment, do we have speakers? Hearing none, then I'll ask the clerk to put it to a roll call vote.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

Thank you. By a vote of seven to four I declare the motion defeated.

The amendment is now before us.

Is there anyone further on the amendment? Last call. Hearing none, we'll put the vote.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Chair, could I ask for clarification on the motion.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

We're in the middle of a vote. I'll conclude the vote and then I'll come to you before I declare.

Mr. Kramp, did you need some information before you cast your vote?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Yes, I do.

Could I have the motion from Mr. Allen repeated so that I'm clear on it, if possible?

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sure, I'll allow that.

He's asking for clarification on the amendment. I'll go the extra mile to make sure that everyone always understands what they're voting on. Otherwise, what's the point?

Madam Clerk, would you be kind enough to read it out, please, because we're at the official stage. We're voting. So let's have the wording as the clerk understands it.

[The Clerk]

Mr. Saxton had moved a motion to invite certain witnesses to appear before the committee on Thursday, April 26. Mr. Allen's amendment proposes that the motion be amended so as to have the Auditor General appear on Thursday, April 26 and the other witnesses named in Mr. Saxton's motion on Tuesday, May 1.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the clarification.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Very good.

Mr. Kramp, you're casting your vote in the affirmative?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Yes, I am, thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you.

Please continue, Madam Clerk.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)

I declare the motion carried on a vote of ten to one.

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd now like to move that we adjourn this meeting.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Hang on. I still have the main motion. That was the amendment to the main motion. I now need your main motion.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm sorry. I thought that was the main motion.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

As amended, actually.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Chair, then I'd like to move that we adjourn as soon as we vote, after we vote on the main motion.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, he's actually out of order in that particular case. That is a point of order, I think.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You're all out of order.

Colleagues, we're down to the last four minutes, and we're making some headway. If we don't do this, the moment is gone. Please be cognizant of the time. We have four minutes left.

Mr. Byrne.