Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Lyn Sachs  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

I now declare this 19th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in order.

Colleagues, as agreed previously, today we have the Auditor General with us to discuss the main estimates. We'll be doing a public hearing component here.

At the end, I'll be putting two questions to you. First, shall vote 1, less the amount already granted in interim supply, carry? That is debatable and amendable. I shall also put before you the following: shall I, the chair, report the main estimates to the House? That is also debatable and amendable. The last question will be as follows: does the committee want to do a substantive report based on the OAG's departmental performance report and report on plans and priorities?

I'll be putting these questions to you as a matter of routine business at the end of this hearing.

If we have time, colleagues, we do have a little bit of committee business. Should we have the time, I would suggest to you that maybe we could slip into a business session. As a result of the postponement of the previous meeting, we have a little rejigging to do. If we have time today, doing that would be in our best interests.

Unless there are any interventions or reasons why I should not proceed, I will go immediately to our Auditor General and ask him for his presentation.

Hearing none, I turn to Mr. Ferguson.

Welcome, sir. It's always a pleasure to have you before the committee. The floor is now yours.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, we are pleased to be here and would like to thank you for this opportunity to discuss our 2012-13 Performance Report and our 2014-15 Report on Plans and Priorities.

With me today is Lyn Sachs, Assistant Auditor General of Corporate Finance and Chief Financial Officer.

We serve Parliament by supporting its oversight of government spending and performance with our financial audits, performance audits, special examinations of crown corporations, and the work of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

All of our audits are conducted in accordance with Canadian auditing standards and Canadian standards on quality control. We subject our system of quality control to internal practice reviews and monitoring, and to periodic external reviews to provide assurance that you can rely on the quality of our work.

During our 2012-13 fiscal year, the period covered by our most recent performance report, we used $88.2 million of the $93.8 million in parliamentary appropriations available to us, resulting in a lapse of $5.6 million. We had a budget of 615 full-time equivalent employees and employed the equivalent of 603 full-time employees—a decrease of 37 from the year before. These results reflect the progress we made on implementing the reductions planned in our strategic and operating review proposal.

With these resources, all but four of our scheduled audits were completed. Two of the audits that were not completed were the special examination for the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board, which was cancelled as the organization was wound up, and the special examination for the Canada Lakes Company Limited, which was delayed to allow us to take into account significant organizational changes in the corporation.

Our 2012-13 performance report contains a number of indicators on the impact of our work and measures of our operational performance. The tables containing our targets and actual performance results are attached to this statement. These tables show that our clients and the senior managers in the organizations we audit find that our audits add value. They also show that the office participated in 27 committee hearings and briefings, compared with 29 the previous year, and that parliamentary committees reviewed 30% of our performance audits, compared with 48% the previous year.

The report also shows that departments made satisfactory progress in addressing 72% of the 25 performance audit recommendations that we followed up on that year.

Of the seven qualifications noted in our financial audit reports that were not addressed, five were mainly for failing to file annual reports on time, while only two were related to auditing or accounting matters. There were no significant deficiencies identified in the three special examinations that we completed this year, and all previous efficiencies have been addressed.

Our measures of organizational performance remained positive, with our on-budget performance for all of our financial audits improving over the previous year. Eight of our performance audits exceeded their planned budget, in many cases because of expansion of the audit scope.

Our most recent employee survey, conducted in the last fiscal year, showed that employee engagement remained high, with 95% of employees feeling proud to work for the office.

Looking forward, we have articulated a new set of strategic objectives for the office and identified four areas where we believe we can make improvements. In planning for 2014-15, we will be working to make progress in each of these areas.

First, we want to ensure that our audits are adding value for parliamentarians, territorial legislators, crown corporation boards of directors, and audit committees. Second, we will be working to make our governance and decision-making practices and processes as efficient and economical as possible. Third, having completed the updating of our audit methodology last year, we will be looking at opportunities to implement our audit methodology as efficiently and economically as possible. Finally, we have begun talking with our staff about ensuring that we operate in an environment where our employees feel more empowered to do their work.

In 2014-15 we will complete our action plan to reduce operating costs, based on the strategic and operating review proposal that we submitted to Parliament in October 2011. Our budget shows that we will reduce our staff levels and achieve our planned spending reduction of over $6.5 million one year in advance of our target.

While we have reduced the number of financial audits we undertake by 25 and will continue to look for efficiencies, we are confident that we can serve Parliament with this reduced funding. We expect to complete more than 95 financial audits, 27 performance audits, and four special examinations in the 2014-15 fiscal year. We are also conducting an audit of the Senate of Canada, at the Senate's request.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Julie Gelfand as the new commissioner of the environment and sustainable development. Julie joined the office on March 24. She brings over 25 years of diverse experience in the field, including senior positions at Rio Tinto, vice-president of sustainable development at the Mining Association of Canada, and president of Nature Canada.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, my staff and I thank you for your ongoing interest and support of our work. We look forward to providing you with valuable assurance, information, and advice in the coming year.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We'd be pleased to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Very good. Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

We'll now begin the discussion in rotation in the usual fashion, beginning with Mr. Falk.

You have the floor, sir.

March 31st, 2014 / 3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Firstly, Mr. Ferguson, I want to question you on your report and point number 12. You state there that you have four objectives. Would those objectives be in order of priority?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I would say that we're working on all four of them concurrently.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay. Which would you prioritize?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I think really that the first thing we are doing is looking at the governance of the office. That's probably the first thing we're doing, but probably more because it is a prerequisite for the others. Certainly, the thing that is of most value to us is to make sure that what we do is adding value for parliamentarians. Understanding that value proposition that we bring I think is probably the most important of our four objectives.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

In your stated targets in your lengthy report, I think you indicate that you're looking for an 80% satisfaction rate from the department and also from parliamentarians. It seems as though you're achieving that with the reports you're providing.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Without having the numbers precisely in front of me, I believe that's the case, yes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay.

With the budget that you're proposing, where do you expect to invest the largest portion of that budget and which of these priorities will take funding?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Well, the way the work of the office happens is that we have essentially two distinct lines of business, one being preparing our financial audits. That's doing audits of sets of financial statements of the federal government, the territories, and various crown corporations. The other is doing the performance audits that we present to this committee and talk about in front of this committee. In terms of how our budget is divided, that's how our budget is divided in general.

In terms of the four priorities that we have here, those are all things that we are planning on doing within that environment of having to prepare those two types of audits, the financial audits and the performance audits. These are all I guess the sort of normal general activities that we undertake within all of the work we do.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay.

I believe you also have other expenditures in the budget. Can you comment a little further on where those funds are going to be used?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Again, I think in general when we look at our budget we look at it from the point of view of the types of expenditures that we have, such as, for example, payroll, supplies, and that type of thing, but the way that we really manage our budget mostly is based on the products we produce. How much does it cost to do our financial audits? How much does it cost to do our performance audits and special exams? Also, then, what does it cost to provide overall support to our audit process?

When we do that, we use essentially a full-cost approach, whereby we allocate our administrative costs to the different types of audits we have. For examples, I'll ask Ms. Sachs to provide some numbers for what we spent in the last fiscal year.

3:40 p.m.

Lyn Sachs Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Basically our budget is broken down into three pieces. We spend about $72 million in salary; about $12 million in non-salary, which is generally professional contracts, IT-related purchases; and then another approximately $12 million, which is services we've received that we don't have to pay for. But what we usually manage ourselves is about $84 million, and it's very straightforward. It's about $72 million in salaries and $12 million in other costs—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Contracts.

3:40 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Lyn Sachs

—and then we allocate. Based on audit hours of our products, we will allocate those costs to the big picture, which is what Mike is talking about. We divide it among our products.

Is that okay?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Your second and your fourth priorities are certainly linked together, if not almost twinned together. Can you comment a little more about staff engagement and also satisfaction and the changes that you propose to make in your governance structure?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

In terms of staff engagement, having our staff engaged in what they do is obviously critical to the work that we do. As I said in my opening statement, we have a very high rate of our employees being proud of the work they do and where they work and I think that's critical to what they do, though we don't want to rest on that. We are going through a process now of determining if there are other ways we can increase that level of engagement and empower our employees in the work that they do, again, to increase that level of engagement.

In terms of the overall governance structure, we are looking at the structure of the office at the most senior levels and also at how we go about making decisions within the government and whether there are ways of streamlining the process by which we make decisions.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Thank you.

Your time has expired, sir. No, I'm sorry, we're at six and a half minutes. You're a minute and a half over, so I have to call it there.

Mr. Thibeault, you have the floor, sir.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Chair.

It's great to be back at this committee and it's great to see you, Mr. Ferguson.

My first question, very quickly, is in relation to the Commissioner of the Environment. I believe her office is part of your office and I know there was a recent report. I'm wondering if you're aware if anyone is going to be studying the commissioner's report in the very near future?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

My recollection is that the last report released by the interim commissioner went before the committee just in the normal release of the report, but after that, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any hearings scheduled on any of the chapters in that report.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

I'm going to jump to some of the points that are in your indicator Table 1. I guess it is in regard to trying to reduce operating costs, so fewer audits are happening. I believe we're looking at.... From one year to the next, we've just seen these drop. I think 30% of performance audits were reviewed in 2012-13. It was 48% in 2011-12 and 62% in 2010-11.

What is the target in terms of 2014 and 2015, especially considering the fact that we're seeing and hearing more and more from Canadians that they want a little more transparency and a little more information coming out of these audits?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

The indicator you're referring to is the percentage of performance audits reviewed by parliamentary committees. Our target is to maintain or increase. We don't have a specific percentage that we are aiming at. But certainly over the last three years, the percentage of performance audits prepared by us that have been reviewed by parliamentary committees has been reduced.

The number of performance audits that we've been preparing has stayed relatively stable within the range of 28 to 30 audits done, but the number that has come before committee has been reduced. This particular table shows that it was 48% in 2011-12 and 30% in 2012-13.

Every time we release an audit report we send a letter to the chair of each of the committees that we feel might be interested in that particular report so that they can consider doing a hearing. There's not much more we can do other than to make people aware that they exist.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

Sir, have we seen these numbers reduced since 2011 since we've seen a majority government?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I believe over the last number of years the percentage has decreased, yes.