Evidence of meeting #23 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Louis Lévesque  Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Laureen Kinney  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Luc Bourdon  Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Régent Chouinard  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yvonne Jones Liberal Labrador, NL

It's to both of you.

4:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Louis Lévesque

On the question of resources and inspections, we are doing a record number of inspections. I don't think looking at this per number of miles or whatever is a good indicator, because what we need to focus on is having the data to measure where the highest risks are. The department has been using all the resources, and new resources have been provided as was explained in the context of the Railway Safety Act review a number of years ago. We have over 100 inspectors. The instructions to staff are to fill all the positions. It's all about having the inspection plans and delivering on the inspection plans.

What the report of the Auditor General points to is that we have not done a good job of meeting our quota on the audit side of the SMS system. But certainly this was about ensuring that we target our resources to the areas of highest risk. We have operational plans in each region, where people identify, in their view, what the highest risks are. It's the job of Laureen and Luc to ensure that the resources that are needed to deliver on those expansion plans are there. They are there.

The Auditor General's report points to the fact that we need to take this to a higher level by fully implementing SMS, delivering on the audit plan, and training our people to do the audits, and then we will be in a better position to identify exactly where all the risks are on a data and evidence-driven national basis and to deploy our resources across the country and wherever the highest risks are.

But as of today, I have confidence that the people on the ground have been doing this work for many, many years. They are, on a systematic basis, following operational plans. We're being told that we need to up our game. We need to increase our connectivity to have better data. We need to modernize our approaches and have a more systematic approach. My basic point is that along with the people on the ground, we're doing that, improving at the same time as we're delivering on the inspection program. It's not one or the other. We're doing both.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Moving along, Mr. Carmichael, you have the floor, sir.

April 30th, 2014 / 4:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us this afternoon.

Mr. Lévesque, in the report the Auditor General, Mr. Ferguson, has said that Transport Canada will never have enough resources to ensure that every federal railway company complies with all aspects of the safety regulatory framework at all times; therefore, it must use risk management—mitigation I guess—techniques to choose what to oversee, when, and how often. I hear you on that. I understand that and I applaud you. I agree with the comments from my colleague, Mr. Woodworth, on the improvement arc, as he's termed it, as you've moved the safety management system along to implementation.

However, you also said that we've fallen short on SMS. I've got to tell you, we're here for Canadians to ensure that Transport Canada and our rail system is safe. I don't think, as one Canadian, that our falling short, the government falling short, or Transport Canada falling short is acceptable.

I look at the comment with regards to recommendation 7.70, where the Auditor General has acknowledged that you have 10 auditors, four of whom are slated for retirement or expected to retire some time soon. That takes you to six. You have a need for 20. I wonder if you could just bring us up to speed, and incidentally, I do appreciate the action plan and its comments. But where are we at on it? You're talking about fall 2014 implementation. Are you going to have 20 auditors in place fully trained and ready to go? How can we give confidence to Canadians that Transport Canada is delivering on this aspect in the rail system?

4:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Louis Lévesque

As a general point, you're absolutely right in saying that falling short is not acceptable. It's about what you do about it. I tried to be very clear that where we've fallen short is on full implementation of SMS and having the audit capacity to back this up.

As a deputy minister, what I can do, and we've already done, is to secure resources in the areas under question to ensure that the people have the resources, the financial resources, to do that. We've done that. I have also given very clear signals that this is a priority area, notably in terms of the staffing. I've been very explicit to people that the positions need to be staffed on an ongoing basis to ensure continuity in staffing levels. It's normal to have people who retire. A particular retirement is maybe unplanned, but the fact that people do retire is planned.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

I don't mean to cut you off, sir, but in the interest of time, where are we at? I agree with you. I hear you on your comment.

4:30 p.m.

Luc Bourdon Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

I just want to clarify an issue. We were kind of surprised when we saw the 10, and I talked to the Auditor General, who gave us some precision. That is actually a number, a figure, that was provided by our people, and those were the ones who had SMS as a designation on their card. The number of people qualified for SMS was about 77% of our inspectors, who did follow proper training. As Laureen mentioned earlier, as we talk today, we only have five remaining that have not had the training to be auditors.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

So that will take you to how many fully trained auditors?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

That would bring our entire inspection force—because it's moving, as you mentioned, we're retiring, we're gaining—to about 105 right now, which means that 105 will have the training by June. There are five remaining, which includes some inspectors as well as some managers. So we'll have basically all of our inspectors plus about 10 managers trained to conduct audits at the end of June of this year.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

So you need 20 audits on the go at any time in a three-year cycle.

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

That's about it, yes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Did the three-year cycle adjust at all?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

It's probably going to go to five.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

It will go to five.

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

Yes. So, to answer your question, 100% of our people will be fully trained to do audits by the end of June.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Just to be really clear, this is an HR issue. This isn't a budget issue; this isn't a fiscal issue. This is a strictly HR management issue. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Transport

Louis Lévesque

Absolutely, in terms of that. Resources at the department level are geared to having the training since it became an issue of staffing first, ensuring you have the people and then delivering them the proper training.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

A criticism of Transport Canada in the report is that the full audits of the SMS have not been performed, and I wonder if you can explain how many man-hours does it take to conduct a full SMS at CN or CP, as an example. Do you have any idea?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

It would depend on the scope of the audit.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Are we talking several days or months?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

It's several weeks, easily, because you do have to sample, for instance, mechanical shops throughout the country. You'll have to pick at least two or three of them, and it's the same thing with engineering and operations.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Sorry, Mr. Carmichael. It's just as you were taking a breath, I know, but time has expired.

Moving along, colleagues, we go back over to Mr. Allen, who now has the floor again.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Thank you, Chair. I want to thank my colleague, Mr. Carmichael, for the question about how many auditors there are, because that was my next question on paragraph 7.42, how many there are and how there's a lot to go.

I believe, Ms. Kinney, you said that in June there will be the last five and that it will be 105, is that correct? Does that include the 10 managers?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

Yes. That's including everyone.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

So roughly, not to suggest that managers won't be inspecting from time to time, but it would give you 95 basically who would be, for the most part, if they're not assigned somewhere else, fully engaged in SMS? Would that be fair to say? That's the majority of the time, I'm not suggesting every day of the week, but the majority of the time?