Evidence of meeting #60 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measures.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Andrew Marsland  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Costa Dimitrakopoulos  Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Maude Lavoie  Director, Intergovernmental Tax Policy, Evaluation and Research Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Miodrag Jovanovic  Director, Personal Income Tax, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Geoff Trueman  General Director (Analysis), Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

All right, may I ask which one of the eight you feel that the department did not evaluate?

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

It's the one I referred to, the first-time home buyers' tax credit.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

It's the home buyers' tax credit. Thank you. I must have just missed that.

The Auditor General makes the point that there is a distinction between monitoring and evaluation, so I want to be clear about whether or not, when you tell us the department did evaluate seven of those eight programs, you do mean evaluate, not simply monitor?

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

By that I take you to mean from your opening remarks that your monitoring does in fact result in identifying potential issues with the tax system and also ensures that the tax system performs as intended. Is that correct?

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

That's correct.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I want to be certain about whether there is any issue with wording here. I would have preferred you to say that the monitoring does identify potential issues with any particular tax expenditure, or does in fact ensure that every particular tax expenditure performs as intended. Is that what you mean, or are you just talking about the tax system generally?

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

I'm not sure.... I mean, the tax system is a collection of those individual measures—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

—so we're looking at those individual measures.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Let me ask it more specifically, then. When you monitored and evaluated the mineral exploration tax credit, did your evaluation lead you to a conclusion about whether that program was performing as intended?

4:20 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

What I gather from your action plan, then, is that while you are telling us, and it's your evidence, that in fact you are monitoring and evaluating tax expenditure programs, it may be that you could improve how that monitoring is formalized and documented. Is that correct?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

I think what we're saying is that our view is that we effectively evaluate tax measures, that we monitor appropriately and so on, but we accept that we need to be able to demonstrate that, both to others and to ourselves—

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Right.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

—so we will systematically look at our work and make sure there are no gaps, and to the extent that there are gaps, we will make sure they're filled.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

This is actually a very excellent function that the Auditor General's office provides, in that it's not infrequent that departments are doing things and are just not able to document them in a way that demonstrates they're doing them. I understand that this is the point of your evidence on this.

I also understand that this process design will be completed by the summer of this year and implemented during the fall of this year. Is that correct?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

That's correct.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

It seems like kind of an ambitious timetable to me. Are you pretty certain that it will be accomplished?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

We've committed to do that, and we will do it.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

So you'll burn the midnight oil. Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Do I have time left?

The chair is busy, so that means I have time left.

4:25 p.m.

Voices

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