Public Accounts Committee on June 7th, 2018

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'll come back to that, because this is the heart of this report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll come back to you, for certain. We'll now move to Madame Shanahan.

Welcome back. I should have said that about Ms. Sansoucy as well: welcome to our committee. This is the first time you have been here. It's a delight for the committee to have you.

Ms. Shanahan, welcome back.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair. It's a pleasure to be back.

Certainly the issue of the Champlain Bridge is one that's close to the citizens of my riding of Châteauguay—Lacolle, which is home to the Mercier Bridge, so we know that there's a direct relationship there that we can get into another time.

Regarding this report, I think the members of this committee and certainly the Auditor General will recall that for me the most important thing is the lessons learned and how we can improve going forward.

I would like to hear more about the life cycle, about what a life cycle cost and review process would look like. I guess I'm addressing that to the Auditor General just for an overview, and then to Ms. Gillis to see how that's been implemented at Infrastructure Canada.

Mr. Ferguson, would you comment?

[Michael Ferguson]

In the course of the report that we produced, you'll see that we did a special examination of the crown corporation JCCBI, I believe in 2003, and at that point we indicated that it did not have a financial indicator in place that would have compared the cost of maintaining the bridge to the cost of replacing the bridge.

As I said in my opening statement, as early as 1986 they started to have to do major repairs that were perhaps abnormal for a bridge of that age, but they didn't have a financial indicator in place that would help them understand the long-term cost comparison of maintaining versus replacing. I think having that is important.

Obviously, having the information about the integrity of the bridge.... As we've seen, they didn't really understand fully the situation of the bridge as it was deteriorating. As the deputy minister said earlier on, part of that was because they didn't have ways of looking in behind the concrete at some of the structure. I think being able to understand that is important.

I think one of the most important lessons perhaps to learn, though, or things to do in in terms of the new bridge, is that one of the unique characteristics of it is that it is supposed to last 125 years, which is extremely long for a bridge. The government will get ownership of that bridge back after 30 years. This public-private partnership requires the bridge to come back to the government after 30 years. It has to be returned in a certain condition, but after that the government is going to be responsible for this bridge for another 95 years, so I think it's important to make sure that long-term planning is in place, and to understand that because of that 125-year lifespan, the life-cycle management of this bridge is going to be very different from any other bridge the federal government owns.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Perhaps, Ms. Gillis, you can tell us how that's going to be executed.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you.

I'll turn to Natalie and Marc to provide us with further details on the action plan by JCCBI. Over recent years, JCCBI has put a lot of emphasis on life-cycle management, as I explained before, using sensor technology to understand the behaviour and the conditions of the Champlain and its movement and understanding what it can do for both the Mercier and the Jacques-Cartier. It's taking a two-step approach and looking at the actions it can do within a 10-year time horizon, but also having a 50-year horizon on what would be required for proactive maintenance and making sure that the value and the life are extended appropriately within the assets it's responsible for.

JCCBI is also doing a lot of research on new building techniques and new types of materials that are appropriate for our climate. They've done a lot of speaking engagements, because they're seen as quite the experts in this area right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Monsieur Fortin.

[Marc Fortin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Program Operations, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Maybe I can add to what the deputy said here.

Indeed JCCBI has implemented a fair amount of technology. Things are evolving in that kind of business. Compared to back in the 1950s, at Champlain there are instruments we didn't have at that time that they now have, and they have put systems in. They call them BMI, bridge information systems, which now exist and which enable them to do the monitoring of the asset.

They are looking right now at the life cycle of the Jacques Cartier bridge. They think there are technologies that did not exist not that long ago that they are going to be able to use to extend the life cycle of that bridge itself.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have 10 seconds.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay. I just want to say something.

I believe that Quebec has one of the best take-up rates for electric vehicles in all of Canada. I want to say to the member across the way that electric vehicles will go a long way towards helping us reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Shanahan.

We'll now move back to Monsieur Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The fundamental question is when did the government find out that the bridge was deteriorating at a troubling rate. In paragraph 4.26 of your report, you say:

However, we found that the JCCBI's communication did not clearly present the increasingly rapid deterioration of the existing bridge.

Obviously, it's pretty difficult to make the right decision at the right time when you don't have the right facts. That is clear.

Now, I'd like to move on to another point. It was initially decided that the new bridge would have tolls. A new government was then elected and decided that the bridge would be toll-free. By your estimate, traffic on the bridge will go up by 20% as a result. What was the estimate based on, and what impact will the increase have?

[Michael Ferguson]

The estimate was based, not on our analysis, but on that of the department. We simply referred to the department's finding further to its analysis of the impact of the change.

I will ask Mr. Le Goff to provide further details.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Le Goff.

[Philippe Le Goff]

Indeed, Mr. Deltell, that information came from departmental documents and was not based on an analysis done by our office.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Did you assess the financial impact of the change? You talked about an increase in cost.

[Michael Ferguson]

That's actually something the department has to negotiate with its partner. It has to determine what impact the change will have on the contract. That means we can't speak to the impact, which has to be negotiated with the partner, and I believe those talks are still going on.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Okay.

Madame Gillis, do you have any information about the fact that there will no longer be tolls at the entrance of the bridge? What will be the impact of that?

[Kelly Gillis]

Right now we are in the process, as the Auditor General has said, of discussing the possible impact. It would go back to service standards, and I'll ask Natalie and Marc to talk about it a bit more.

Because we have service standards for the operation and maintenance of the bridge over the duration of the contract with them, that's what would vary, depending on what happened with the deterioration of the bridge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Ms. Bossé, would you comment?

[Natalie Bossé, Director General, Major Bridges, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Good afternoon. With regard to those discussions, they pertain—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You can answer in French. Don't be intimidated.

[Natalie Bossé]

Thank you.

As the deputy minister and Auditor General mentioned, our negotiations with SSL are still under way. The talks are really focused on those elements that SSL will not be responsible for in relation to toll collection. SSL will not have to collect tolls, and so, toll collection elements will be removed. Those talks are ongoing.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

The issue isn't really whether there will be toll boxes or whether drivers swipe a card. The real issue is the long-term impact. It was estimated that $3 billion in revenue could be lost. How will the change affect the funding of the project?