Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Sylvain Ricard  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Ronald Bergin  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Susan Seally  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone. This is meeting number 12 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I'll just remind committee members, and those in the audience today, that we are being televised. If you could please mute your phones or other communication devices, that would be appreciated.

As well, committee members, at the close of this meeting we will take some time to go in camera for committee business. Please bear that in mind. It may be that a couple of rounds of questioning would be cut short, but there should be ample time for us to question our Auditor General today.

Today we are considering the main estimates for 2016-17: vote 1 under the Office of the Auditor General; and the report on plans and priorities for 2016-17 of the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.

We have witnesses today from the Office of the Auditor General to help us with this study. We have our Auditor General, Michael Ferguson; Sylvain Ricard, assistant auditor general; Ronald Bergin, principal; and Susan Seally, principal.

I would invite Mr. Ferguson, the Auditor General of Canada, to begin, please.

8:45 a.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chair, we're pleased to have this opportunity to discuss our 2014-15 performance report and our 2016-17 report on plans and priorities. With me today is Sylvain Ricard, assistant auditor general of corporate services and chief financial officer; Susan Seally, principal of human resources; and Ron Bergin, principal of strategic planning.

As the legislative auditor of the federal government and the three northern territories, we support Parliament and territorial legislatures by providing independent and objective assurance, advice, and information about government financial statements and the management of government programs. The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development carries out our mandate related to the environment and sustainable development.

We conduct all of our audits in accordance with Canadian auditing standards. We subject our audits, and our system of quality control, to internal practice reviews and to periodic external reviews, to provide assurance that you can rely on the quality of our work.

In addition to carrying out our audit work, we are engaged in the advancement of legislative audit methodology, accounting and auditing standards, and best practices. We also work internationally, supporting projects funded by Global Affairs Canada, sharing knowledge, building professional capacities, and promoting better-managed and accountable international institutions.

As reflected in our financial statements, our net cost of operations was $92.4 million in the 2014-15 fiscal year, of which $77.7 million was provided through the main estimates. We had a budget of 565 full-time equivalent employees, and employed the equivalent of 547 full-time employees.

With these resources, we delivered 87 financial audits, three special examinations, 25 performance audits, and two case reports under the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. This represents all planned audit work except for one performance audit, on sustainable development of commercial fisheries, which was cancelled.

Our 2014-15 performance report identifies several indicators of the impact of our work, along with measures of our operational performance, which are attached to this statement as appendix A.

In monitoring the impact of our work, specifically the extent to which federal government organizations addressed the issues and concerns raised in our audits, our targets were met for special examinations and performance audits. Our target was not met for financial audits, though the affected audits represent less than 4% of our total work.

In the 2014-15 performance report, we note that parliamentary committees reviewed 32% of our performance audits. This finding represents an increase from 24% in the 2013-14 fiscal year, although it is below our target of 65%. We participated in 21 parliamentary committee hearings and briefings on our audit work.

Among senior managers of organizations subject to performance audits, 59% either agreed or strongly agreed that our audit reports were understandable and fair and added value. This result was below our target of 80% and below recent results, which ranged from 74% to 79%.

Our analysis shows that most of the remaining respondents were neutral, neither agreeing nor disagreeing that our reports added value, and they identified no particular opportunities for improvement.

Our measures of organizational performance remained generally positive. In particular, our practice reviews, which serve as a key quality control in our audit methodology, found that our audit reports were appropriate and supported by proper evidence.

Turning now to our 2016-17 report on plans and priorities.

Our strategic plan identifies a number of client, operational, and people management objectives that we use to manage the office and direct our continuous improvement efforts. In the 2016-17 fiscal year, we will focus most of our improvement efforts on the following three priorities.

First, we will improve the governance and management of the office through the implementation of new senior management roles and responsibilities, and improvements to our risk management procedures. These actions should lead to more streamlined decision-making at the most appropriate level in the organization.

Second, to develop and maintain a skilled, engaged, and bilingual workforce, we will monitor employee participation in our required professional development program, develop and deliver empowerment workshops, and implement second-language learning plans.

We are committed to providing our staff with the training and development opportunities they need, and to supporting them in meeting the language requirements of their positions.

Third, to meet our objective of ensuring that we continue to select audits that are likely to have significant impact and value, we will review our audit mandates and the allocation of our audit resources to focus on audits of greatest importance.

We are also reviewing the performance indicators that we use to manage the office and to report to you on our performance.

We expect to complete this work in the coming months.

Tables containing our current performance measures are attached to the statement as appendix B.

For the 2016-17 fiscal year, we are requesting parliamentary appropriations of $78.5 million in our main estimates.

Our planned number of full-time equivalent employees is 570. With these resources, we expect to complete more than 85 financial audits, 24 performance audits, and six special examinations.

In conclusion, my staff and I look forward, in the coming year, to continuing to provide you with products of high quality that add value.

We thank you for your ongoing support of our work. We would be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much for your testimony.

We'll move into the first round of questions.

For seven minutes, go ahead, please, Mr. Lefebvre.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

Mr. Ferguson, in your report, you state that 32% of the reports are reviewed by a parliamentary committee and that your target is 65%. That's a fairly significant gap.

Could you provide some explanations in that regard? Is the 65% target achievable? What accounts for the discrepancy?

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I can only say that those are our numbers. We try to establish how many hearings would be needed in order to discuss our reports with parliamentary committees. Naturally, it's up to the committees to determine whether they consider it important to hear from us on certain audits that we've tabled.

We welcome the opportunity to discuss our reports and consultations, but, again, it's up to each of the committees to decide whether the subjects are of interest to them.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Before how many committees have you appeared? Which ones review the reports that you submit?

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

It depends on each case, but if you look at the past, we've appeared before a variety of committees.

There is also our mandate from the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development. Naturally, those reports are submitted to the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development

In addition, we sometimes appear before other committees—notably on defence and indigenous affairs—and before certain committees of the Senate.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Are you able to measure the extent to which your audit products result in tangible changes to the workings of government? After you've done an audit, can you measure the changes made?

8:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Finding the right way to assess the outcomes of each of our audits is an ongoing challenge for us. We certainly do follow-up audits, from time to time, on topics that were the subject of past audits. That's one possible approach. However, it's not really a good way to achieve helpful measurements of outcome, given all the time that elapses before we carry out a new audit on the same subject.

However, it's the only way we've found to determine whether our audits have a particular impact. Departments certainly look favourably on all the recommendations we make in our various audits, and they sometimes prepare action plans to resolve the problems we've identified. But the only way to ensure that the recommendations and improvements are implemented is to do a follow-up.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

I will give the floor to my colleague Ms. Mendès.

May 10th, 2016 / 8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being with us again this morning.

Mr. Ferguson, I have a question about the targets that you say were not achieved.

Based on the financial reports, it looks like you did not achieve all your objectives for management audits and financial audits. Is there a reason that you weren't able to achieve those targets? Is it because the departments themselves had trouble answering your questions in a timely manner? Are there other explanations for this situation?

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

There are two audits, in particular—financial and pension plan audits—for which the information often is not prepared within the time needed for the audit to be carried out in accordance with the audit schedule. The entities involved are the reserve force pension plan and the Canadian Forces pension plan.

We sometimes face the same type of challenge with a few crown corporation audits in the three northern territories. As you know, we also perform the auditor general function for those territories. That's another situation where it's often difficult to get information in a timely manner.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

It is possible to give us a list of all the departments that did not respond, that remained, shall we say, neutral, or that did not say yes or no to your recommendations? Would it be possible to have that list, further to your performance audit and management audit reports?

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I see two aspects to your question.

The departments generally agree with all our recommendations and prepare action plans to resolve the issues we found.

In my opening statement, I referred to the results of a survey of departments and organizations. They stated that our recommendations added value and that the audits were an important exercise. Some of the responses in those cases were neutral. These were simply evaluations given by the departments audited by our office—their assessment of the value of those audits.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much. We'll move to our second round.

Mr. Godin, you have seven minutes.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the Auditor General and his colleagues for being here with us.

You help us fulfill our function. What we need to determine today is whether you use the right methods to give us information. I think you do.

In your 2016-17 report on plans and priorities, you specify three objectives: "ensure effective, efficient, and accountable governance and management of the Office; develop and maintain a skilled, engaged, and bilingual workforce; and ensure the selection and continuance of audit products likely to have significant impact and value."

Come next year, how will we be able to assess whether you've attained your objectives? Which measures will you put in place to enable us to determine whether you've achieved them at a rate of 25%, 50%, 100%, or 150%? Which are the measures for assessing the attainment of those three objectives?

9 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

The performance measures for the 2016-17 fiscal year are set out in appendix B to my opening statement. They are the different indicators that we must put in place to measure our progress. It's possible to see the progress we made on those three priorities. For example, it's our objective to give our employees all the training necessary. To that end, we can identify all the available courses and the participants in each of those courses.

In addition, we have second-language training and development plans covering both official languages. Therefore, we are actually able to see what progress we make in that area as well.

Appendix B sets out all the indicators that we will put in place.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Currently, how does the workforce of the Office of the Auditor General compare with that of other departments with respect to bilingualism?

9:05 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

I can't speak to the situation within other organizations, but I can say that, in view of the requirements, we need to have certain bilingual positions, including supervisory positions. It's important that those positions be held by people who can communicate in both official languages. Our priority, as expressed in our official languages plan, is to ensure that all our supervisors have up-to-date proficiency levels and the skills to communicate in both languages. But I cannot make any comparisons with other departments. Mr. Ricard might be able to address that.

9:05 a.m.

Sylvain Ricard Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

We are subject to the same standards. All our executive positions are designated bilingual imperative, which means a CBC proficiency profile. This is the case with our management promotion process as well. The same standards apply to us.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Can you assert that the relevant requirements are completely met at the Office of the Auditor General?

9:05 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sylvain Ricard

Yes, it's clear that all the plans, and the training and development programs, are established with a view to training bilingual staff that meets the requirements.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Ferguson, at paragraph 17 of your statement, you say that you're asking to have 570 full-time equivalent employees so you can carry out 85 financial audits, 24 performance audits, and 6 special examinations. In 2014-15, you had 547 employees. Does this mean you're operating with reduced staffing levels? Are you overextended? Do you need more employees to give us similar results and audits on the same scale?

9:05 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sylvain Ricard

Are we overextended? I suppose we are, somewhat, and our situation in that regard is similar to everyone else's. Our staff has certainly been reduced as a result of the workforce reduction initiated some years ago. We have reduced the scope of some of our work, and, in recent years, we've reached the limit of our capacities. We're evaluating options in this area.