Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2018

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Our Auditor General.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Berthelette.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, we stand by our recommendations.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Okay, then I'll ask the deputy minister.

Ms. Thomas, it looks as though you don't have any recruitment and retention strategies. However, I read in your report that you do have some retention strategies. You mention “Seamless Canada” and the CAF retention strategies, do you not?

[Jody Thomas]

Yes, we do have retention and recruitment strategies, but we have a particular problem with fighter jets, so we have to do more, and more is being looked at by the chief of military personnel and the commander of the air force.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Then why not clearly state that we do have that, and we need to do more?

At first glance, it appears that you don't have any strategies.

[Jody Thomas]

We do, and certainly we have a renewed emphasis on growing the Canadian Armed Forces as a result of “Strong, Secure, Engaged”.

Up until recently, the armed forces have been downsizing. We're now having to reverse that trend and grow the Canadian Armed Forces at a time when unemployment is low and there is, as we've said, a worldwide requirement for pilots. We have a specific challenge. It is one that we're very focused on, and yes, there are strategies.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

The government came out with the new operational requirement in 2016. By 2017, you had estimated the cost to extend the life of CF-18s until 2032. It is about $1.2 billion. That number did not include the cost of combat capability.

When the audit was being done, were you involved in analyzing the requirements to improve the combat capability?

[Jody Thomas]

When the audit was ongoing we hadn't completed that analysis. The Auditor General reports on what we've done and what we haven't done.

We're never not analyzing the improvement to fleets. They're constantly going through refits, through weapons changes, sensor changes, defensive and offensive capability changes to respond to threat and environment, etc. Certainly the air force can go into it in more detail than I, but that project isn't yet complete. It will be this spring. Then we'll decide what we'll do.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the Auditor General's office a question, as an aside. If I look at the recommendation, at least when the audit was being done, it appears the department is not doing anything to analyze what upgrades are required. Was that the case?

[Casey Thomas]

In terms of what we looked at, it was whether or not National Defence had carried out work that was approved, and that we could look at, then, in the future, as to whether or not it had been carried out.

As the deputy minister said, they are carrying out work. However, analysis that is not final or hasn't been approved with an associated budget is not something that we would accept as something the department has committed to and has finalized as an action it's going to take in the future, in this case to improve its combat capability.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

My only concern is that the way it is reported it appears that the department is not doing anything, when, in my opinion, it is doing something about it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Arya.

We'll now go to Mr. Christopherson, please.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

My questions are in the same vein as Mr. Arya's, but I've reached a little different conclusion.

When I look at page 8 of the report:

3.48 In 2017, National Defence estimated that the total cost of extending the flying life of the 76 CF-18s until 2032 will be $1.2 billion. This amount includes the cost for spare parts and upgrades to the structure and avionics and electrical systems, but not any combat capability upgrades.

3.49 Without combat upgrades, the CF-18 will be less effective against adversaries in domestic and international operations. In our opinion, flying the CF-18 until 2032 without a plan to upgrade combat capability will result in less important roles for the fighter force and will pose a risk to Canada’s ability to contribute to NORAD and NATO operations.

I looked at that and I thought one of two things. One touches on where Mr. Arya went and it looked like incompetence. I'm addressing my questions to the general because it is your people who do this work. To leave out the fighting capabilities of fighter aircraft is hard to understand from a layperson's point of view. It sounds like incompetence.

If it's not, and if it's as Mr. Arya believes, that it was under way but not finalized, then my second thought is that the $1.2 billion is a ruse. That's not the real number. Either you knew you had to do combat capabilities but somebody forgot to put it in the analysis, or you knew you were going to have to do it and there was a cost to it, but it was going to make the $1.2 billion look unacceptably high.

I accept there could be a third reason. I anxiously await your response, General. Which is it, incompetence, trying to dodge the numbers or something I'm not seeing?

[LGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I'll refer the numbers to my colleague here in a moment, but certainly as I indicated, our intent is to complete the assessment for combat upgrades to the CF-18—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not my question.

[LGen A. D. Meinzinger]

—by May of next year. As I've described it will be in a number of different areas.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not my question. Answer my question, sir.

[LGen A. D. Meinzinger]

This is work that we're going to undertake, and as the deputy—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not my question.

Mr. Chair, I asked—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ask again.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm going to ask again.

It's one of two things, or I'm missing something as a third answer—and I accept that. Either there's incompetence—somebody forgot to include the combat capabilities in a fighter aircraft—or it was deliberately left out because it would make the $1.2 billion unpalatable. It's either one of those two or an answer that I don't understand, but please don't go off in some other direction, General. Please, sir, don't do that.

[LGen A. D. Meinzinger]

Okay. I'll defer to my colleague who can speak to the $1.2-billion estimate.

[Patrick Finn]

I think, sir, that my answer to your question would be the third.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.