Evidence of meeting #136 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was found.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvain Ricard  Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Philippe Le Goff  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Jean Goulet  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Nicholas Swales  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues. This is meeting 136 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Thursday, May 9, 2019.

I would remind the committee and those in the audience today that we are public and televised, so if you have a cellphone, please mute it. There are fewer distractions if you do that. Thank you for that.

We're here today to discuss the 2019 spring reports of the Auditor General of Canada following the tabling of the reports on Tuesday, May 7. While we had some brief time then and again today to ask some preliminary questions about the reports, today we have a full meeting to ask questions about the five reports and four special examinations.

To answer those questions we have with us, once again, from the Auditor General's office: Mr. Sylvain Ricard, Interim Auditor General of Canada; Jean Goulet, Principal; Carol McCalla, Principal; Philippe Le Goff, Principal; Michelle Salvail, Principal; and Nicholas Swales, Principal.

We welcome you. This is the first time you have tabled a report. We thank you for that and for your availability to come and give us a briefing on the chapters that are the basis of the audit tabled in Parliament last Tuesday.

Welcome, and the time is yours.

9:40 a.m.

Sylvain Ricard Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to be here to present the findings of our recent audit reports that were tabled in the House on Tuesday. They include five performance audits of government programs or activities and four special examination reports of Crown corporations.

I am accompanied by Jean Goulet, Carol McCalla, Philippe Le Goff, Michelle Salvail and Nicholas Swales, principals responsible for the audits.

In our first performance audit, we looked at the call centres of three departments: Employment and Social Development Canada; Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada; and Veterans Affairs Canada.

Overall, we found that getting through to government call centres took time and persistence. In fact, we found that half of the 16 million Canadians who tried to speak to an agent could not do so. Seven million callers were redirected to an automated system, told to visit the website or disconnected. In addition, more than a million callers gave up waiting and hung up.

We found that service decisions were not driven by Canadians' needs. For example, departments did not offer callers the option of staying on the line or getting a call back when an agent became available.

The situation is unlikely to improve in the near future. The government's “clients first” service strategy does not include call centres although more than 25% of Canadians use the telephone to connect with government. In addition, after five years of a call centre modernization project, Shared Services Canada has managed to upgrade only eight of the 221 call centres, and it has no plans for the remaining 213.

Let's turn now to our second audit. In this audit, we examined how asylum claims were processed by the Canada Border Services Agency; Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada; and the Immigration and Refugee Board.

We found that Canada's refugee system is unable to process claims within the two-month target set by the government. In fact, backlogs and wait times are worse now than when the system was last reformed in 2012, to address these very same issues. The claims backlog has grown from 59,000 in 2010 to 71,000 in 2018. Wait times have grown from 19 months in 2010 to 2 years today.

The fundamental problem is that the system is unable to adjust to spikes in the volume of claims. With the current number of claims, if the problem remains unresolved, 5 years from now, families and individuals seeking asylum can expect to wait 5 years to find out whether Canada will grant them protection.

This fundamental flaw in the system is made worse by a number of administrative issues that would improve the processing of claims if they were fixed. For example, we found that the 3 organizations' computer systems don't work well together. This causes delays, duplication of effort, and a reliance on paper files. We found that almost two-thirds of hearings were postponed at least once, adding an average of five months to the time required for decisions.

I'm going to go now to the results of our audit of the taxation of e-commerce. This audit focused on whether the Canada Revenue Agency, the Canada Border Services Agency, and the Department of Finance Canada ensured that the sales tax system for e-commerce was neutral, and that the sales tax base was protected. We found that the Canadian sales tax system did not keep pace with the rapidly evolving digital marketplace. We estimated that Canada had forgone $169 million in sales tax revenue on digital products.

The Department of Finance analysis of the e-commerce sales tax system has shown that there is a risk that the current system could discourage foreign businesses from settling in Canada and encourage Canadian businesses to move their operation to other countries.

The Canada Revenue Agency and the Canada Border Services Agency have roles to play in ensuring that all taxes are collected and remitted to the government. We found that they have not done enough work to make sure that this is happening. For example, we found that the Canada Revenue Agency has identified e-commerce and accommodation-sharing as corporate risks but has done little to address these risks.

Take the case of accommodation-sharing, an industry that has grown almost tenfold to $2.8 billion in just three years. The agency could confirm that it had audited only four companies. The Canada Revenue Agency does not have the authority to implement practices that have been successful in other countries or provinces, such as putting in place a simplified registration process for foreign businesses.

We also looked at how the Canada Border Services Agency managed the collection of taxes on low-value parcels imported through courier companies. We found that the agency's systems and processes were outdated and that it relied on couriers to remit taxes owing. The agency did little work in response to warning signs such as an unexplained increase in the volume of parcels valued at under $20, and therefore not subject to tax, or audits showing a significant undervaluation of parcels by couriers.

The next audit I'm going to discuss looked at the oversight mechanism that the government has put in place to ensure that it meets its commitments to non-partisan advertising. It's important to understand that the government has a policy that requires all of its communication to be non-partisan. For advertising, which is a subset of communication, the government has put in place a review mechanism to prevent taxpayer dollars from being used for partisan advertising. For campaigns with a budget of less than $500,000, the review is to be conducted by Public Services and Procurement Canada. Campaigns with a budget of more than $500,000 are subject to an external review conducted by an organization called Ad Standards.

We found that the money threshold is the only factor that determined whether advertising is reviewed externally. In our view, other factors such as the topic of a campaign or its potential reach could also be considered when assessing the risk of partisanship in government advertising. For example, a small-value campaign on a politically sensitive topic may carry more risk of partisanship than a more expensive campaign that is strictly informational. The audit also found that there was little documentation to show that reviews, whether internal or external, were conducted with sufficient rigour to address the risk of partisanship.

In our final performance audit, we focused on whether the RCMP provided its officers with the hard-body armour vests and carbines they need to respond to an active shooter situation.

We found that the RCMP had enough protective vests across the country, but that distribution was uneven. In other words, not all officers had access to a vest. We also found that the RCMP did not know if all officers who needed a carbine had access to one.

Due to a lack of planning, the RCMP was not prepared to meet the long-term requirements of adding a new weapon to its inventory. This affected both maintenance of the carbine and annual recertification on its use. We found that maintenance had not been completed for about half of carbines.

As I mentioned at the beginning of my statement, the reports we released Tuesday morning also included copies of the audit work we completed in Crown corporations since the fall. These reports have already been made available to the public by the Crown Corporations who received them.

Our audits of the Business Development Bank of Canada and Canada Post Corporation found no significant deficiencies in these corporations' practices.

We reported a significant deficiency in the audits of Marine Atlantic Inc. and the National Museum of Science and Technology. In the first case, the problem was due to the government's delays in approving Marine Atlantic's corporate plans, which hindered the corporation's ability to make long-term strategic decisions. We raised this same problem in our 2009 audit.

In the case of the National Museum of Science and Technology, we found many weaknesses in the way the Corporation managed, safeguarded and preserved its collection. Combined, these weaknesses amounted to a significant deficiency.

That concludes my opening statement.

We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

Before we go into the first round, for those who may be in our audience and those who may be watching today, I think it's important that we just lay out a couple of ideas as to how the process of this works.

The Auditor General has filed his audits, tabled them in Parliament, a number of different studies on different departments. Although he appears here today and we will question him about any of those chapters, as our committee knows, in the next two months we will meet individually with those departments, and we will do a study and we will table that study in Parliament, as well. Questions that may not come today may well come to the department heads, the deputy ministers, who will appear on those studies. It's not just this one meeting today that deals with all the subject material in the audits. We'll narrow it down to those questions later.

We'll go into the first round of questions. The first round is a seven-minute round.

We'll go to Mr. Arya, please, for seven minutes.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask the Auditor General this. You submit the reports twice a year, the fall report and then in the spring. Would it be a good idea for you to submit the report of audit of any department or any Crown corporation as soon as you complete it?

9:50 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

That is something that we could consider. That is not the current practice, but we are always listening for ways to become even more helpful to the committee and to the House.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Are there any barriers or constraints that you are facing that would stop you from doing that?

9:50 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

There are some legal aspects that frame how we have to conduct business and reporting, but we could.... At times we are looking at—while respecting, obviously, the legislation—where there is room for adjustment in the mode of continuous improvement. We're considering those aspects.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

My next question is about the special examination of the BDC.

I wish I had known that you were going to examine BDC. Maybe I would have given at least my suggestion that you examine the very fundamental things that BDC has achieved or whether it is addressing the reason for why it was set up.

BDC was set up to help entrepreneurship, to help small and medium-sized businesses. I wanted to know whether BDC has achieved that instead of making another venture capital fund or another chartered bank.

I have worked in several countries. I have worked in a financial institution, which was a development bank, so I know a bit about development banking. In my view, BDC is almost acting like any other commercial entity, commercial bank, rather than a developmental financial institution.

For next time, is there a way, when you do this special examination of certain Crown corporations, that we know well in advance?

9:50 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Yes, indeed.

We always welcome the input of the committee, from MPs, from the public. Obviously, to protect our independence, we make the ultimate decision about what we audit. However, input from any source is always more than welcome.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Okay, thank you.

On the call centres, is the government—any government, the current or the previous government—setting up unrealistic expectations in terms of meeting service standards?

I want to know how much the role of Shared Services played in not addressing the entire 221 call centres. During the last five years or so, they have upgraded only three of the 221. How much did that play a role in the current low quality of service being provided to Canadians?

9:50 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

I'll speak to two elements that we noted during the audit: one is the technology side.

As you mentioned, Shared Services Canada has a project where, out of 221 call centres, they've upgraded, modernized, eight of them. For the 213 remaining ones, there's no plan in place yet.

The technology brings some limits. That's why there's a modernization project. Improving the technology will help, but you also need service standards. With the technology that you have—a better one, more people, fewer people—you need to define the service level you're trying to achieve. It would be important to establish that, after consulting with Canadians, and to be transparent on the service level you're offering, so that Canadians know what to expect when they call the agents.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

On the processing of asylums, it's shocking to know that even today, CBSA and IRCC depend on paper-based systems. When the government is going digital, when people are using digital means to communicate, why are these government departments still operating with a paper-based system?

9:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

We found during that audit that there are some challenges around the systems, but they're challenges about systems not talking to each other and quality assurance of what you input in the system. When, let's say during a hearing, they use that information, if the information is not current, not complete, not clear, not readable.... Ultimately, if it's a copy of a document and it's not readable, it causes challenges for the hearing process, to the point of having to reschedule the hearing. Any time that a hearing was rescheduled, what we noted is that it added five months to the process for that one file.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

In your report you mentioned that since 2014 the RCMP has increased the number of carbines by over 300% and hard body armour by almost 200%. So the problem is with the internal process of distribution rather than, say, not having a budget.

9:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

They started a project some years ago whereby they've acquired more carbines. Yes, they have more, and we report on that, but they have not established a national standard. Our recommendation is that they determine exactly how many they should have, to make sure that all agents who should have one have access to one.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We'll now move to the opposition to Mr. Kelly, please, for seven minutes.

May 9th, 2019 / 9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thank you.

I'd like to talk about the e-commerce report, and I'll start by asking about taxes received on imported low-value shipments sent by courier. I think there's quite a bit to unpack under that point.

There are two problems here. The agency is relying on the good faith of courier companies to declare and remit sales taxes that they collected from consumers. Then it goes on to say that the agency had indications the courier companies did not declare full taxes owing to the government and officials did nothing to resolve the issue.

I think it's always troubling to Canadians when a department or agency knows they are not doing something. They've identified a problem and are seemingly choosing to ignore a problem. That's troubling. Furthermore, the other piece of low-value shipments by courier is that the GST and HST seem chaotic.

So I'd like either Monsieur Ricard or Monsieur Le Goff to walk us through the GST and HST. If a package comes to Ontario with a final destination in Manitoba, lands in an HST province going to one with a separate provincial sales tax, what gets collected, what gets remitted, if anything?

10 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

I'll ask Monsieur Le Goff to take you through that process.

10 a.m.

Philippe Le Goff Principal, Office of the Auditor General

When a package is ordered by a citizen living in Manitoba, for example, which has a PST, if the package crosses the border in Manitoba, the GST and the PST will be collected. If the same package is coming to Canada, going to Manitoba but crossing into Ontario, the GST will be collected, not the PST, because there's an agreement between the province and the federal government that only the GST will be collected.

Those agreements, in most cases, are very old, and were put in place before the growth of e-commerce, when people were not ordering online.

If the package is coming through a province with HST, so Ontario and going to an Ontario customer, the GST is collected, and there's a formula to calculate the HST, the provincial part, that will go to the province. It's called the revenue allocation framework. It's very technical. I will not go there, but this is basically the picture of the situation.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Based on your findings, how much confidence should Canadians have that this is being done correctly? You identified problems in accounting between provinces, or between border services and provinces, if I understood correctly.

10 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Philippe Le Goff

If we have doubts on the accuracy of the taxes collected, we have concerns about the money that is remitted to provinces.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Collected by border services but possibly not remitted to provinces.

10 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Philippe Le Goff

Yes, so we don't know if it is withheld by the couriers—we don't necessarily have evidence of that—or if it is not even collected.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I see these as two or maybe three separate problems.

First of all, is the courier even collecting the tax? Second, is the courier remitting the tax to Canada Border Services Agency? Third, is border services remitting the provincial portion of the tax, and at each step of the way, is the correct amount of tax, based on the final destination of the package, being collected?

10 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General