Evidence of meeting #137 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audits.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvain Ricard  Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Lucie Cardinal  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Ronald Bergin  Principal, Strategic Planning, Office of the Auditor General

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues.

This is meeting number 137 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for Tuesday, May 14, 2019. We're here today in consideration of, first, the main estimates 2019-20, vote 1 under the Office of the Auditor General and, second, the report on plans and priorities 2019-20 of the Auditor General of Canada. We also may, if we have time at the end of the meeting, go in camera for 10 or 15 minutes just to discuss a couple of items that have come up.

Before we get into the introductions of all who are here, for those who may be watching or for others who may be in our audience today, the main estimates provide a detailed listing of the resources required by individual departments and agencies for the upcoming fiscal year. They identify the spending authorities, known as votes, and the amounts to be included in subsequent appropriation bills that Parliament will be asked to approve. The House of Commons standing committees may approve, reduce or reject the estimates that are reviewed or referred to them, but one thing that they cannot do is increase them.

Each committee has until May 31 to study them, to vote and to send them back. Otherwise, they are deemed to have been reported. This is what we are doing today. We are hearing the estimates. The House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts has a role to play on behalf of Parliament and Canadians in holding the Office of the Auditor General to account for its past performance and future plans. As a committee, we have developed a practice of reviewing the Office of the Auditor General's performance report and its departmental plan in conjunction with the main estimates. This one day, we kind of forget the last audit done by the office, and we look more specifically to the Office of the Auditor General itself and to the monies that have been appropriated to it.

We welcome, from the Office of the Auditor General, Mr. Sylvain Ricard, Interim Auditor General of Canada; Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General; Lucie Cardinal, Assistant Auditor General; Ronald Bergin, Principal; and Kimberly Leblanc, Principal.

Welcome here.

We will turn the floor to you, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Sylvain Ricard Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are pleased to have this opportunity to discuss our 2017-18 departmental results report and our 2019-20 departmental plan. With me today are Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General; Lucie Cardinal, Assistant Auditor General of Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer; Kim Leblanc, Principal of Human Resources; and Ron Bergin, Principal of Strategic Planning.

The Office of the Auditor General of Canada supports Parliament and territorial legislatures by providing independent and objective information, advice and assurance about government financial statements and the management of government programs.

The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development carries out our mandate related to the environment and sustainable development.

We conduct all of our audits in accordance with Canadian auditing standards. Our audits and our system of quality control are subject to internal practice reviews and to independent external reviews to provide assurance that you can rely on the quality of our work.

We also help to advance legislative audit methodology and accounting and auditing standards, and we work internationally to build our capacity and to promote better-managed and accountable international institutions.

Let me turn first to our 2017-2018 results report.

As shown in our financial statements, our net cost of operations was $94.2 million, and we employed the equivalent of 568 full-time employees, or FTEs.

With these resources, we delivered 90 financial audits, six special examinations, 19 performance audits, and our first annual commentary report on our financial audits. The Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development also published a collaborative report on climate change, working with provincial auditors general, and delivered a review of departmental progress in implementing sustainable development strategies and our annual report on environmental petitions.

This represents all planned audit work, except for our cancelled performance audits on federal science programs and on infrastructure on reserves; and our performance audit on federal scientific facilities where, instead of a tabled audit report, we issued a management letter at the conclusion of the audit.

In our results report, we note that parliamentary committees reviewed 88% of the reports we presented to Parliament in the 2017-2018 fiscal year. This represents an increase from 72% in the 2016-2017 fiscal year. In total, we participated in 52 parliamentary hearings and briefings on our audit work.

The mission of the Office of the Auditor General of Canada is to contribute to well-managed and accountable government for Canadians. To assess this, we measure whether all of our audit opinions on financial statements are unqualified, and whether all of our special examination reports identify no significant deficiencies. In the 2017-2018 fiscal year, we issued unqualified opinions on all but two, or 95%, of the financial statements we audited. In both cases, we are working with the organizations to address the issues we identified and can inform you that in one of those cases, we have since been able to issue an unqualified audit opinion.

For all six of the special examinations of Crown corporations that we reported in the 2017-18 fiscal year, we identified significant deficiencies. In addition to making recommendations to the corporations, we have since issued our first commentary report on these audits to bring our concern to the attention of Parliament. With the help of this committee we are seeking to improve the management systems, practices and controls in these corporations, particularly in areas that need government support to resolve the problems.

Our assessment of our own organizational performance was generally positive with no significant opportunities for improvement identified. In particular, in our internal practice reviews, which serve as a key quality control in our audit methodology, the reviewer found that our audit reports were appropriate and supported by proper evidence. Our 2017-18 results report includes several indicators of the impact of our work along with measures of our operational performance, which are provided in an appendix to this statement.

Let me turn now to our 2019-20 departmental plan. The Office of the Auditor General is funded through various appropriations and transfers. For the 2019-20 fiscal year, the program expenditures of the Office of the Auditor General under vote 1 of the main estimates for this committee to consider reporting to the House of Commons is $78 million. Our planned number of full-time equivalent employees is 580. Our strategic framework identifies a number of client, operational and people management objectives that we use to manage the office and direct our continuous improvement efforts

In the 2019-20 fiscal year we will focus most of our efforts on the following three objectives.

First, to ensure that we are financially well managed, we need to address the financial challenges we are facing. Although the 2018 federal budget provided us with some new ongoing funding, we did not get any of the new funding that we requested in the 2019 federal budget. We are continuing to explore our options to ensure we are properly funded and accountable only to Parliament. In the near term, we have no choice but to decrease the number of performance audits that we conduct.

Second, to develop and maintain a skilled and engaged workforce, we will better match our audit and support service requirements with the human resources we have available to do the work. We will continue to defer certain audit-related work where we can. We will also defer a number of projects in our support services.

Third, to ensure effective, efficient and accountable office governance and management, we will continue to enhance our information technology security controls. We also need to renew the IT infrastructure that supports our audits, and we have begun to implement a multi-year plan based on the resources that we have available. In the 2019-2020 fiscal year, we will complete the replacement of our human resources management system and begin to replace our audit management software.

In conclusion, the Office of the Auditor General thanks you for your ongoing support and use of our work. We look forward to continuing to serve you in the coming year.

We would be pleased to answer your questions.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Ricard.

We'll now move into the first round of questioning. Again, it's a seven-minute round.

We'll go to you, Madame Mendès. Welcome back.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Many thanks to the witnesses for coming once again to enlighten us on the annual planning of the Office of the Auditor General.

I must say that I was surprised yesterday when I read about the difference between what the government is proposing as funding, or $78 million, and what you feel is necessary, $88 million. I think you mentioned this in your presentation.

Am I wrong?

8:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Our initial budget increase request was $21 million. We received $8 million in budget 2018, so the difference between $21 million and $8 million is what is—

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

I'm talking about this year.

I am talking about pages on estimates in the English version. It's on page 167. You provide budget estimates of $88,238,296, but the voted total was $78 million.

8:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Could you tell me again what page that is on?

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

It is in one of your publications, the estimates, part II, on page 167 of the English version.

8:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

I don't have the estimates document on hand.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Were your projections indeed $88 million and the voted amount $78 million? Is there really that much of a difference?

8:55 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Do you have the amount here, Ms. Cardinal?

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

It's in your 2019-2020 estimates, right?

May 14th, 2019 / 8:55 a.m.

Lucie Cardinal Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

The $78 million is what we requested in the main estimates. That is the amount we received.

As Mr. Ricard said, we requested an additional amount of $20 million, but we received $8 million.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Those were amounts for last year, correct?

8:55 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Lucie Cardinal

Yes, that's right.

The funding of $88 million is what we will get in our main estimates for 2019-2020, and it includes the additional amount of $8 million we have received.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

So you will get $88,238,296, is that right?

8:55 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Lucie Cardinal

Yes, for the upcoming year.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Okay, thank you.

I also have a few questions about the two entities that received opinions of non-compliance. You said that one of those entities has already complied with all the requests and that you have been able to issue an unqualified audit opinion.

Can you tell us about the types of issues you have identified within those two entities? Do they include governance problems?

9 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

I want to clarify that these were two entities located in Nunavut. Essentially, the issue stemmed from the fact that files were not ready when we came to conduct the audit. Not all the information we needed had been gathered. We need quality information to be able to issue an audit opinion.

In those kinds of situations, we work with the organization and try to help it improve its financial information processes.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Does the issue also have something to do with those organizations' lack of training? Would they have needed training sessions to be able to meet the audit criteria accepted in Canada? Is that a possibility?

9 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Yes, that can happen.

I am also thinking of small organizations for which an audit is sometimes a challenging undertaking. For an audit to be successful, organizations do need access to all the necessary expertise to be able to present quality information, and that information must be ready in a timely fashion.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you.

In other provinces and territories where you have to carry out auditor general duties, things seem to go well. Is that right?

9 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Yes.

Ms. Cardinal is clarifying that, in the case of the two entities in question, the problem had to do with their inventory.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

It's probably another issue related to record-keeping, right?

9 a.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Yes, that's right.