Evidence of meeting #138 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was carbines.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvain Ricard  Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Brian Brennan  Deputy Commissioner, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Dennis Watters  Chief Financial and Administrative Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Nicholas Swales  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues. This is meeting number 138 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Thursday, May 16, 2019.

I will remind committee members, as well as people in the audience and our guests, that we are televised today, so I would encourage you to put your cellphones on vibrate, mute or airplane mode or whatever settings you need to do. That way there will be fewer distractions.

I said that about three weeks ago and then it was my phone which rang, so I've made sure this time.

We are here today in consideration of “Report 5, Equipping Officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, of the 2019 spring reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

We're pleased to have with us again this morning, from the Office of the Auditor General, Monsieur Sylvain Ricard, Interim Auditor General of Canada, and Nicholas Swales, Principal.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we welcome the commissioner, Brenda Lucki, and deputy commissioner, contract and indigenous policing, Brian Brennan.

We will open the meeting and give the floor to the Interim Auditor General, Monsieur Ricard.

8:45 a.m.

Sylvain Ricard Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our audit report on equipping officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP.

Joining me is Nicholas Swales, the principal responsible for the audit.

The RCMP is Canada's largest police force, with more than 18,000 officers. It provides Canadians with policing services at the federal, provincial, territorial and municipal levels, and it serves within indigenous communities.

Since 2001, there have been nine shooting incidents that caused the deaths of 15 RCMP officers in total. On June 4, 2014, an assailant with powerful firearms killed three Moncton RCMP officers and wounded two others.

This audit focused on whether the RCMP provided its officers with hard body armour and semi-automatic weapons called carbines. A key purpose of this equipment is to protect officers in active shooter situations. The audit also looked at officer training on the use of carbines and pistols and at the maintenance of those firearms.

This audit is important because the RCMP is required to provide appropriate equipment and related training to comply with its duty to protect the health and safety of its officers under the Canada Labour Code and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act.

We found that the RCMP did not define how many carbines were needed to adequately equip officers to respond to active shooters. As a result, the RCMP did not know whether it had provided carbines to all of the officers who needed them and did not know how many more carbines were needed.

We also found that the RCMP had enough hard body armour nationwide to meet its policy requirement of providing one set for each operational vehicle, plus 10%. However, the Ontario and Quebec divisions did not meet this requirement, so not all officers had access to the armour.

We found that the RCMP had met its target for the initial training of front-line officers on carbines, but that 13% of these officers had not completed the annual recertification of their training. This meant that these officers were not permitted to have access to their carbines until they had completed their recertification.

We found that half of the RCMP carbines had not been maintained according to the RCMP policy. Likewise, the RCMP was not meeting its policy requirements for the maintenance of pistols. A firearm must be well maintained to ensure that it functions when an officer needs it to respond to a lethal threat, which generally occurs without warning.

Overall, we found that the RCMP did not have a plan to manage the acquisition of carbines. In our view, this contributed to the backlogs in firearm recertification and maintenance. Inadequate planning also contributed to bottlenecks in distribution and to the RCMP's not always following procurement rules.

We made six recommendations. The RCMP has agreed with all of them and has shared its action plan with us. The plan includes actions and timelines for our recommendations.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Ricard. We'll now move to Commissioner Lucki.

8:50 a.m.

Commissioner Brenda Lucki Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for inviting me and my colleague to speak with you today.

I am joined here by my colleague, Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan, who is in charge of our contract and indigenous policing at the RCMP. We're here to provide you with information and respond to your questions.

At the outset, I would like to thank the Office of the Auditor General for its report and to highlight that the report is fully aligned with our vision 150, the RCMP's road map to modernization. The RCMP will turn 150 years old—or maybe 150 years young—in 2023, and since I have had the honour of taking the job as the commissioner of the RCMP, I have begun to implement vision 150.

To do this, we sought the input of all RCMP employees to build our modernization road map, which focuses on objectives that fall under the four key pillars: our people, our culture, our stewardship and our policing services. These four pillars have clear objectives that will steer us along the path forward in modernizing our organization.

Since the Moncton shootings in 2014, the RCMP has worked diligently to implement recommendations from the MacNeil report. The safety of our employees is of utmost importance to me as the commissioner and to the RCMP as a whole. A safe workplace is critical to the RCMP's ability to achieve its mandate of a safer Canada.

Accordingly, we have accepted each of the OAG's recommendations and are actively addressing and implementing them. The OAG highlighted that we met and exceeded our carbine training target and that we are also meeting our target of providing access to hard body armour to operational front-line officers.

I will take this opportunity to emphasize additional work that has been done, and is ongoing, which has also had a positive effect on officer safety.

Effective responses to active shooter incidences require not only the right equipment, but also the right training and the right tactics. Therefore, any analysis of our members' readiness must take into account the tactical training.

Since 2016, more than 13,000 officers have been trained in tactics to respond to active threats, and now all cadets at our training centre receive patrol carbine and active threat training. As a result, an average of 25 newly trained members are deployed across the country each week. Recently, the Government of Canada has invested a significant amount of money for a new state-of-the-art 100-metre range and simulation centre that will assist us in achieving these goals.

We have also trained more than 1,100 police officers in initial critical incident response, which educates supervisors on how to manage critical incidents until an accredited critical incident commander can take charge. There have been numerous incidents across the country where this training and equipment have saved lives.

Tactical training for RCMP officers has further supplemented other developments covered by the OAG's audit, particularly in relation to equipment and corresponding training. I am proud of how we continue to adapt and deliver leading-edge policing services that help keep communities safe. The RCMP has taken great strides in support of policing excellence and recognizes there are always opportunities for continuous and ongoing improvement.

Several activities are already under way to address concerns raised by the OAG. Last October we started using an electronic interactive mapping system that provides operational leaders in RCMP divisions with the number of carbines and carbine-trained officers down to the detachment level. This system supports evidence-based decision-making on carbine distribution.

The OAG found that we largely met our requirements for providing hard body armour. To continue looking forward for policing excellence, the RCMP is examining having hard body armour personally assigned to all operational front-line officers.

We are also developing a stronger operational standard for the number of carbine-trained members, and are examining the possibility of equipping every operational police vehicle with a long gun.

With respect to firearms training, we have far more consistency and have made significant improvements in a number of key areas. For example, the annual firearms qualification program was recently revised to focus on skills development and further enhance tactical training. We continue to improve our firearms instructor training to focus on physical skills and increasing compliance rates through the creation of a more facilitative learning environment for our officers.

Regarding our compliance levels for pistol and carbine annual qualifications, we recognize the importance of ensuring a ready workforce. That is why we are reviewing existing firearms training policies and practices, while also putting additional mechanisms in place to achieve the highest level of oversight and accountability. This work will be carried out under the guidance of the RCMP's national mandatory training oversight committee.

The RCMP will always strive towards the desired compliance rates and will work towards solutions for the challenges to be overcome, such as those that come with Canada's geography and climate, particularly in the north. My senior executive team and I will continue to hold ourselves to the high standards and are committed to supporting the review of existing firearms training policies and practices in order to achieve the highest level of compliance and accountability.

With regard to firearms maintenance, the RCMP has a well-established preventive maintenance program that seeks to ensure that all members have safe and reliable firearms for use in their duties, as well as spares when required. We are meeting this objective, and in response to the audit, we will ensure that our current preventative maintenance policies are clarified so that the expected periods of time for servicing are clearly articulated and communicated.

Last, the RCMP is committed to examining options for more robust project management and will ensure that life-cycle elements are considered during the project approval process. From a governance perspective, the RCMP will establish a committee for assets and materiel as part of its investment management framework to ensure investment decisions fully consider life cycles of given policing equipment.

It should also be noted that the RCMP has improved its oversight on officer safety equipment through the creation of an operational equipment oversight committee that ensures the timely advancement of procurement, training, and health and safety components for priority equipment. The RCMP is committed to an open, fair and transparent procurement process, while obtaining the best possible value for Canadians.

Before I conclude, I would stress that the RCMP is fiercely dedicated to taking care of our people, a key element of the RCMP's vision 150. Our road to modernization is a constant process. We understand that we will continue to face challenges and criticisms along the way and we will continue to come out as a stronger organization.

As we continue to work on the implementation of operational training and equipment, the OAG's recommendations will certainly assist us in our efforts and I'm confident that we will continue to improve. The RCMP has developed a management action plan to address all of the recommendations and will be sharing it with our membership as part of our culture of communicating decisions and holding ourselves to account.

Through stewardship and sound decision-making, we will ensure RCMP officers have access to the equipment and training they need to do their job as safely and effectively as possible.

We would be happy to respond to your questions. Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

We will move into our first round of questions, with Mr. Sarai, please, for seven minutes.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you.

First, I recognize the integral role the RCMP has had in the safety of Canadians, and the high level of safety and security which is felt throughout the country. We thank you for that, especially in my riding of Surrey Centre.

As you know, Surrey has the largest RCMP detachment in Canada. It is also home to the B.C. headquarters, E Division. Thank you for your work. Whatever we can do to guarantee the health and safety of our officers is paramount. However, this also gives us concern, because we have a lot of police officers in Surrey Centre, and Surrey in general, who work and serve there. The Auditor General's report was quite concerning to us, as 13% were found to not be trained adequately to use carbines and to not have body armour.

Recommendation 5.24 states that the RCMP “should establish a national standard to ensure that each detachment is adequately equipped with carbines”. Given the nature of contract policing, can you explain exactly how the decisions are made and what equipment should be issued in different detachments that might have different needs?

9 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Certainly.

We always work off risk assessment. Risk assessment does not always include the actual safety, but it includes the geography: how many members are at each detachment; did they have access to backup; and how close is backup. If they are at an isolated post and can only fly in, we'll take that into consideration.

It's not always based on Criminal Code statistics or the actual crime, but also that we have to take all those factors into account. We put that through a risk assessment.

For example, in the first round of deploying the carbine, we had to ensure that isolated detachments were given the equipment they needed, and we rolled it out. We could not purchase all of it at once. We had to use a risk assessment, and that was in consultation with each district and detachment commander.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

We see numbers for Ontario and apparently Quebec. What are the numbers for British Columbia? How many have the training for carbines and how many would have body armour?

9 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I don't have the exact numbers with me, but we could provide those, should you wish.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Please do. Also, if you could, those numbers in regard to the Surrey detachment would be of importance to us.

May 16th, 2019 / 9 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Absolutely.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

How is the RCMP going to conduct assessments at the division or detachment level, given commanding officers' evidence-based information, to continue to make the sound, risk-based decision on the carbine to be assessed? How do you make that decision?

I understand that the north was given priority first, but if an officer is on patrol and hears a call for something that they need a carbine for, do they stop and go back, or should they rest assured that their vehicle has the body armour and carbine they need to go and assess the situation?

9 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

The risk assessment was done in the initial instance because we could not deploy a carbine for every vehicle. That's when the risk assessment was done. However, now we're in a position where each member, if they are trained, would have access to the carbine, to put that in their vehicle. Therefore, that has changed.

The risk assessment was more for the initial issuing of the patrol carbines. However, in big units such as Surrey, they would have access to that equipment, if they are carbine trained, to put it in their vehicle.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

How do you ensure that all of them are carbine trained? Why wouldn't every officer be carbine trained? When you have an annual fitness review, and so on, or other reviews where you make sure that the officer has complied, why isn't carbine training one of those things?

9 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

First of all, at the training academy, in terms of the instruction each cadet now receives, we added two weeks to our 24-week induction training. This has been going on for a couple of years. One week is carbine training and the second week is immediate action, rapid deployment training.

Going forward, every person who graduates from the training academy leaves with carbine training unless they're unsuccessful, because it actually is very rigorous training. They would have to get retrained if they weren't able to pass while they were in the training academy. They might need to get reassessed when they're deployed.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

How often do they have to get recertified?

9:05 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It's yearly.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

How many of the officers are getting recertified annually, as a percentage?

9:05 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Our goal is 100%.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

What is it currently?

9:05 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I don't have those numbers with me.

For us to actually get to 100% is almost impossible, only because, with transfers, members might be certified in the month of September, because that's when their area does the recertification. In April, they might get transferred and miss when they were supposed to get recertified, so they might be delayed. They might not get it at exactly a year.

Also, in the northern—

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

You understand that we as public servants when there's a situation where an officer gets transferred midway, in September, reacts to a situation, does not have access to a carbine because he or she was not trained on it, gets shot and becomes a casualty, we'll be held accountable and you'll be held accountable.

How do we mitigate so that does not happen, so that everyone has the training, has the equipment and we're not short of it? If we have 110% of the required amount, thus 10% more than every single member, how do we ensure that everyone has training and has access to that at all times?

9:05 a.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Well, we work on our robust training plan to ensure that certifications are done within their year. The same goes for our side-arm training. Our initial commitment, when we first got the carbines, was to ensure that we had, I think, 65% of the membership trained on carbine. We've since exceeded that and we're going to continue to exceed it as we go along.

Often there are some people who, for various reasons, might not get trained. They may come from a position that wasn't front line, so they were never trained on carbine, and then they get transferred to front line so now they'll get put in the queue to be trained for carbine.

That's why I say we do it as quickly as we can. Often they may not get trained exactly when they arrive, but their training will be scheduled.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Sarai.

One of the questions you posed to the commissioner was about the number of members who did not have the recertification. It is in the Auditor General's report. There were 13% who had not been recertified. They had the certification but not the yearly—

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

I wanted to know about British Columbia.