Evidence of meeting #139 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was irb.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvain Ricard  Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Lori MacDonald  Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Richard Wex  Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board
John Ossowski  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Carol McCalla  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Bruce Scoffield  Director General, International Network, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

It actually changes every year.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Well, let's say in the last two to three years.

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

Just to give you an example, so far this year the top five countries are India, Iran, Mexico, Nigeria and Colombia. So far this year the U.S. would be 11th on the list.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Is that citizenship?

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'm asking where they came from. Which country did they come from?

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

They would have come from India, Iran, Mexico, Nigeria and Colombia this year. In 2018, we had Nigeria, India, Mexico, Colombia, Iran and Pakistan. In 2017, we had Haiti, Nigeria, and the U.S.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Where does the United States fit in?

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

In 2017, it was third.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

It was third.

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

Yes, and so far this year it's 11th.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. Sarai is next.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you.

Ms. MacDonald, I'm a bit troubled when I hear that there is a system integration issue. You're saying Montreal is still paper-based, but not Toronto. Why can't we use the efficient system all around if we know that it works better?

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

In Montreal, as Mr. Scoffield indicated, it really was the start of the proof of concept. One of the things that was identified to us was that we needed to address the idea of technological systems. We can't just have one department address it. All three areas have to, and because all of our systems are different, how do we tackle it to ensure a comprehensive approach?

That's why I indicated that we have to work with Shared Services and PSPC. It's because they can help us work through all of those very complicated systems to bring us on board; otherwise, one department will be further in one place than another department.

In order to advance and get to that technological place where we're all speaking to each other, the project plans will work at different paces. In order to do that, it is going to take us three or four years to get there.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

But the process is in the works?

10 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

The process has already started—certainly in the last year, but more so in the last six to seven months. We have a number of initiatives already under way.

May 28th, 2019 / 10 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Mr. Wex, I understand you have a number of challenges in the IRB. You can have surges that grow exponentially in a year, and then you can have droughts, I assume, but it seems that we have fewer droughts and more surges in immigration in the refugee saga. However, you brought delays due to IRB adjudicators down from 49% to 30%.

How are you able to design a system that can be nimble enough and that can grow when the surge happens, so that we don't get these huge delays and then catch up during slow times? I understand it's not one of those predictable variables like immigration planning, but we need to get this right so that we don't have challenges. Have you looked at systems that might be able to handle that?

10:05 a.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board

Richard Wex

I believe this goes back to one of the fundamental findings the Auditor General identified in the report and that previous reviews have identified, which is a flexible funding model.

What does that mean? Right now, this coming year, we're funded for over 40,000 claims, and next year for 50,000, but let's say that through the Asylum System Management Board that Ms. MacDonald has been speaking about, we see after the first quarter of the year that we don't have 15,000 claims, but 20,000 or 22,000. We would then be able, on that basis of performance tracking, to inform central agencies, such as Treasury Board and others, that our forecast was off. At that point we could be able to access additional funds because the intake was higher than we had forecast.

That's opposed to what happens now, which is that we wait the entire year, even though we can see the trend increasing, and at the end of the year we say, “Guess what? We had 70,000 claims instead of 45,000 claims. Let's put together a funding proposal for the government to consider in their annual budget.” Then the budgetary discussions take place, and we may or may not get funded.

If we do, it may or may not be 100 cents on the dollar, and it's earmarked. Funding comes later in the spring and summer, and then we're ramping up. At that point we're 18 months down the road. Then we have to recruit, hire, train. Then we're two years down the road before we hit productivity numbers, and we've created a real backlog.

This has been the history of our refugee determination system from time to time over the past 30 years. A flexible funding model, as the OAG recommends, would be a success factor to help prevent backlogs from accruing.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

I completely agree.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Make it quick. Just give closing comments.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Can we also do it by having a roster of IRB adjudicators that you can call on when you need them, so that you don't have to hire and train new ones?

10:05 a.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board

Richard Wex

Very quickly, on that point, money is good but money without people doesn't do a lot. We need a roster. We need a contingency workforce. In addition to permanent funding—a flexible funding model, as you've suggested—we need a contingency workforce. We've used that in the past—for example, with the legacy task force. We are currently calling out former members, former justice lawyers, retired judges and so on to develop such a contingency workforce in the event that we're in a position to draw on them.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you Mr. Wex and Mr. Sarai.

We now move to Mr. Christopherson, please.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

On page 2, paragraph 2.7, there's a reference to an independent review commissioned by the government that recommended “further system-wide efficiency improvements to the asylum system.” Would you be sure to forward a copy of that report to our analyst, please?

10:05 a.m.

Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Lori MacDonald

Mr. Chair, we'd be happy to.