Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 17th, 2016

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Somebody tells the minister the recommendations.

[Janine Sherman]

Absolutely. Because a judge is required, there is a separate and distinct process that happens with the Department of Justice, with the judiciary and the chief justices in the provinces of those superior courts.

I cannot speak to what those activities were during the audit period.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Why not?

[Janine Sherman]

They are not within my responsibility. That is the management of judges.

What we do is exactly as you have pointed out. The department will be cognizant of what the tribunal is looking for in terms of the demands. The Department of Justice would be working with the judiciary in terms of judges who may be available. I don't know what is involved in those discussions. But that is the process it goes through, whether they're—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I find it odd that we just.... Mr. Dendooven mentioned to us a bit earlier as well that there were three people named to this tribunal in the month of May. Am I correct? Then for three years, there were none. I'm just asking why. Again, nobody can provide me an answer. I don't find it acceptable for the Canadian public and our first nations that want the claims to proceed that have been delayed for years, decades in some cases, to know their cases cannot even be heard, and nobody here on this panel can tell me why.

Mr. Chair, I just find that unacceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That is noted.

We'll go to Monsieur Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have the privilege to go back to my previous question. Witnesses who have not had a chance to speak will be able to do so.

I would like to invite the officials from the various departments in turn to say a few words about their self-assessment system. If we continue to play the Auditor General's audit lottery, we may have to wait another 10 years for measures to be put in place. Some of the members of Parliament will probably no longer be in the House at that time. You have to have a functional public service that self-assesses so that the system is improved, so that we get over the history and rigour is applied.

Can you tell me whether there is a way to improve the processes without having to wait for a visit from the Auditor General?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Where do we want to start?

I don't know if the question was clear. Well, the question was clear. It was on what you are doing within the departments, not so much on self-assessment but on recognizing the vacancies that may be coming, assessing when you need to act. You get your phone call from Ms. Sherman once a month, or whatever, saying that these are the things happening. That's a good.... That's one extra measurement. Is each department getting that call? Is each department putting out a benchmark of things that need to be done so that we don't have the vacancies and the...?

Is that fair, Mr. Godin?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to add some information for the officials.

You will understand that the clients served by your departments are Canadian taxpayers. So, as clients, they want to have adequate services. It is not normal to keep people waiting. There have been waiting periods of 10 months, but the delays are 18 months right now.

Are you putting measures in place to improve the processes? I think my question is very clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll start with Mr. Dendooven.

[David Dendooven]

We are actually receiving calls every week, since all departments are in the process of learning the new system. I am sure my colleagues will also point that out.

As public servants, we are very aware that we are working for Canadians. So we are evaluating the work that we do to ensure that we are doing it, first and foremost, for Canadians.

In terms of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the unit responsible for appointments ensures that the work is done effectively. As a result of the Auditor General's review of the tribunal, we have reassessed our processes to ensure that we respect its independence and that we cannot be accused of interfering with the candidates whom the Minister of Justice recommends to the Governor in Council.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Please go very quickly because we're short on time and others want to comment.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Today's audit covers the period from 2009 to 2015. Unfortunately, in your case, Mr. Dendooven, you were not there, but do the other departments have mechanisms in place to self-assess and improve on an annual basis? This can be done every year, but it can be done every three months, every six months or every two years. The important thing is to have a continuum in improving the system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Ms. Sherman.

[Janine Sherman]

Other departments—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I see your light is on. We'll go back to Monsieur Cintrat.

[Jean Cintrat]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can answer that.

Our department may not have an audit system specific to this file as such, but it has a broader auditing system that follows up on the audit, which is always the case.

Since the spring, we have set up an internal one-stop shop, which coincided with the tabling of the Auditor General's report and the implementation of the new Privy Council policy. Since then, my team has been managing the one-stop shop for the entire portfolio of the minister's office and the Privy Council Office. So all the information goes through my office. This enables us to know the status of the files at any point. This allows us to deal directly with the minister's office in order to inform him of future vacancies, for example, and to work with him to discuss and decide on various options for the appointment process when necessary.

We now have a very clear idea of the positions that are supposed to be vacant six months or a year in advance. We then start a bureaucratic process, because it is our role as public servants to provide the minister with the administrative machinery he needs to make those appointments, knowing that it is ultimately his decision and the decision of cabinet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Was there anyone else who wanted to wade in? No.

We'll move to Mr. Weir, please.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

To return to the Competition Tribunal, it seemed Ms. Dooher was making the point that there's a maximum number of appointees that need not be met at all times, and there's a roster of other qualified people who could be appointed. By contrast, my reading of the Auditor General's report was there was a real concern that a lack of appointees was delaying hearings that were very important to Canadian businesses and consumers.

I'm wondering if I can get the Auditor General to come back on this question.

[Michael Ferguson]

Mr. Chair, it brings me back to the fundamental point. We can look at vacancies and we can look at processes, but the real measure that matters is the timeliness of decisions.

We identified here that it took 16 months to appoint an individual with the expertise in economics needed to hear cases before the tribunal at the time. If you need that type of expertise, and you don't have it, it doesn't matter if you're only one member below your maximum number. You may be well above your quorum and that type of thing, but if you are missing a key competency, then it can affect the ability to make decisions.

Again, the key measure on all of these things is whether these organizations are able to make the decisions on a timely basis. If they are not, is it because they don't have the number of members? Maybe the reason is something else.

In this case we were able to see that with the number of shortages we identified, it seemed to be having an impact on the actual decision-making of some of these organizations.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you.

Now I have a more general question. We've been talking about the appointment process, but we haven't really talked about the orientation or training that might be available to people after they are appointed to these tribunals.

I wonder if there is anyone on the panel who would like to speak to that question.

[Janine Sherman]

Mr. Chair, I can start.

Yes, the Auditor General did look at some of the training and orientation we do. There is certain information that is provided through the fact that the appointees are now public office holders, and if they are in what we would refer to as leadership positions, we do meet with them and inform them of those responsibilities.

For the role of PCO, we attend other orientation and information sessions that are managed for various groups of appointees and provide information and training about their broader responsibilities.

The organizations themselves will provide more specific, job-specific training, and orientation to their responsibilities. Some of my colleagues might want to comment on what that is.

We do work to make sure first of all that they understand their responsibilities in terms of their public appointment status, and then the more specific training is usually done with on-boarding processes within the organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Cintrat.

[Jean Cintrat]

The Parole Board of Canada, which is under the umbrella of Public Safety, has a very well-established training and on-boarding program for their membership, and I believe they also have an annual assessment of them.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

For the Auditor General, are you more or less satisfied with the orientation and training that's in place? Do you have any suggestions on that front? Is this something you might examine in the future?