Evidence of meeting #54 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was numbers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
John Forster  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
C.A. Lamarre  Commander, Military Personnel Command, Department of National Defence
André Demers  Commander, Canadian Forces Recruiting Group, Department of National Defence
Susan Truscott  Director General, Military Personnel Research and Analysis, Department of National Defence
Gordon Stock  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

4:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

I think the audit reports do show some systemic problems in recruitment. It's a challenge. It has been a challenge and it continues to be a challenge. There are some events that took place between this audit and the last one. In particular, we went through two major deficit reduction exercises in the armed forces with an annual cut of about $2 billion. A major part of that reduction response was cuts to recruitment in the armed forces. We closed, I think, 13 different recruitment offices, cut 12 recruitment offices, cut back on staff, and we paid a price for that. There's no question about that.

As our response to the Auditor General's findings show, we know we have to reinvest in those offices. We need about 40 new staff to process recruitment, and we're trying to find—not we're trying to—we will find the resources to do that. The chief has made.... There's no point in us having a target of 68,000 and continuing to be 4,000 people short.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Exactly.

4:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

There are some reasons for that. One is our capacity to recruit. Some of it, too, is that, in some of the most difficult occupations, you are competing for a very scarce resource, and I think in my remarks I talked about that—doctors, psychiatrists, and so on—and I think they can provide you some more detail on that.

Once we have them, too, then we need to retain them as much as possible by promising great careers, good training, and good support, which was the earlier question. We've laid out.... I think our action plan defined it. There's been some progress, but we know recruitment is an important part of what we need to do. Closing and cutting recruitment resources just makes the problem worse, not better.

I don't know, General, if you want to add anything.

4:10 p.m.

LGen C.A. Lamarre

Thank you, sir.

I can give you an example of concrete numbers. The 12 recruiting centres that were cut, which the deputy minister referred to, resulted in a loss of 180 positions. Of course, those 180 positions are for the types of people who would be involved in processing a specific file for the individuals who are recruiting, so you have a net loss in your capacity of throughput to make this happen.

However, as was alluded to in the opening comments, there's a recognition of that. There are already some steps that are being taken care of. There are some ways forward, if you will. By the middle of the month of June, we'll have 20 new file managers who are going to be working for Colonel Demers down in Borden. They're being hired specifically to look after the processing of files. To also increase the throughput, he will be receiving another 20 of those by the end of the fiscal year.

Within the military personnel command, we also have the responsibility for basic training. Down at our leadership recruit school in Saint-Jean, we are right now increasing their throughput capacity by the provision of 26 contracted instructors. They will be there specifically to take on the qualifications that we must give our incoming recruits, such as first aid and other types of skills like that, so that we can actually get moving forward on these pieces.

If I can add one other point...?

4:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Very quickly, please.

4:15 p.m.

LGen C.A. Lamarre

It's about the idea to also say where we're putting in incentives to bring in those hard-to-reach trades, including doctors, where we're looking to provide significant cash incentives when they're coming to join the Canadian Armed Forces.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you. Listen, I—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have 15 seconds.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Really? Every time I talk fast, though, the interpreters say they can't follow me. I'm stuck.

4:15 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thanks very much.

Thank you, Chair. I'll catch it in the next round.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right.

We'll come back to Mr. Lefebvre, please.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again for being here, Mr. Forster.

As my colleague noted, it is very worrisome to see history repeating itself. Each time you appear before this committee, you say that things are going to change, that you will set things straight and that the situation will change.

The auditor general said it in his report and repeated it today in his presentation. In paragraph 7, he notes that the 2016 audit identified similar problems as those found in 2002 and 2006. He added: “These included setting recruiting targets lower than the needs and having no comprehensive plan to attract more applicants, especially for chronically understaffed occupations.” The next sentence is important: “We believe that without significant changes to recruiting, the Canadian Armed Forces will not have the members it needs in the future.”

What major changes will you be making or have you made? From what I can see, this is an ongoing process. You make changes, but not major changes, unless I am mistaken. Can you explain what the changes are please?

4:15 p.m.

LGen C.A. Lamarre

Okay.

I will talk about two aspects: recruitment and retention.

On recruiting initiatives that are significant, I'll start with the reserve force, first and foremost.

We used to have a fairly long process. That discouraged young Canadians who were trying to be part of the reserves. The chief of the defence staff was adamant that we would change that, that we would change it down so that you could do the recruitment and, instead of taking multiple months, you could break it down to a period of 30 days at the most. That's what is being done right now in a trial on the east coast and with some air reserve organizations. It's been trialed with some success. It means that on that aspect we're taking some risks, and there are aspects of looking at enhanced security clearance, but we're thinking that if we have a good, solid police check and a credit check, then we can continue to start training these young men and women so that we can actually get them in uniform and excited about what it is that they're going to do. That's one of the initiatives we're doing that is significantly changing things.

As well, the other one that we're looking to do is to significantly change how we're recruiting the regular force members, by going with an electronic format but also by changing how it is that we attract them, with a much higher reliance, if you will, on social media. With the millennials we have, it's no longer one of these large ad campaigns that you're going to see in newspapers, because most of them don't read them. However, the reach-out that is occurring on a multitude of platforms for social media is significantly different. On this particular one, we also need to move ahead faster, so that we can actually reduce the lag time for them to get interested in the Canadian Armed Forces. That's what we're doing in recruitment.

Retention is probably one of the most important ones as well, because if we can prevent young men and women from leaving the Canadian Armed Forces at various gates by making it more attractive, that will be important for us. One of the key programs we're looking at doing right now is to facilitate the move between the regular and the reserve forces. It used to be a complex process to make the transition, but we now want to make it as simple as a transition of a matter of a week or two after showing intent. The reason for this is that it will be attractive to a lot of the population, whether they are trying to satisfy linking up with spouses on other postings or whether they're at the point in their life where they want to have a family and concentrate more on raising their family and maybe parading some part-time.... We want to make it so that we have the terms of service that will enable that. That's a significant change.

Also significant is the change of giving them the opportunity to make sure they have their chance to take a break and come back without a penalty in how they're getting paid, and certainly with the opportunity to continue contributing to their pension fund, so that they can have a full career but with the breaks in their career that are necessary so they can raise their families and so they can achieve other things—for example, pursue another degree—and after that continue as a valued member of the Canadian Armed Forces, perhaps in very bespoke responsibilities and capabilities for which they have the training and for which there might be a short-term contract.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

What you are describing will happen, I believe. We hope to see tangible results.

In addition, you said that your numbers are lower because 12 recruitment centres have been closed. I am happy to hear about the major changes you will be making.

Having a plan and ideas is all well and good, but do you have the necessary tools to meet those objectives?

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

I think as I indicated before, to meet our deficit targets, we closed recruitment centres. That was a bad idea, because you cut off a lot of the capacity you need to bring people in.

We're rebuilding that capacity, hiring more staff, as the general has mentioned. I think that's going to be critical. As he mentioned, our ad campaigns are getting much more targeted and focused on trades, on women, on visible minorities. It's not a generic one-size-fits-all, but getting much more focused on who we're trying to reach and who we're trying to excite about a career.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

I asked whether you have the necessary resources to meet your objectives.

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

Yes, we have the resources necessary, and we now have new leadership to this file. We have a good game plan to do that, with a lot of work ahead of us.

However, I don't believe it's a question of resources. We have technology. We have resources. We have tools. We have to get on with it.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

It's a question of what, then?

You have to move forward with your plan. As I said, the 2002, 2006 and 2016 reports were fairly similar. I don't think you will be offended then if we are a bit sceptical about you meeting your objectives. We want to see you succeed, of course, but this is not the first time we have seen this problem. We certainly hope it will be the last time.

You made an interesting point about reservists. We conducted a study in that regard recently. I am very pleased to see that there is greater cooperation between recruitment for the reserves and recruitment for the Canadian Armed Forces.

Can you tell us more about the importance of reservists to the Canadian Armed Forces?

4:20 p.m.

LGen C.A. Lamarre

It is very clear. Let me give you an example of a situation in the fairly recent past.

During the war in Afghanistan, each tactical group that we sent there had about 1,000 members, 20% to 35% of whom were reservists. They were part of the tactical groups and helped increase strength.

With this large group of reservists who were trained up and came to join the battle group, you cannot tell the difference between the two of them, but those numbers were essential for us to be able to maintain the mission we have.

There is no doubt that our reservists are essential for the kind of work we do. Of course, there's always the intent to make sure they have really good hands-on roles that are effective and essential for when we're doing deployed operations, or even domestic operations in Canada.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

Very quickly, Mr. Forster.... We've already given him his extra time.

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to add one point.

In some of the occupations where we're struggling to recruit, there's a lot of that in Canada. If you live in rural ridings, you know how hard it is to get doctors, nurses, psychiatrists, dental technicians. Our forces face the same challenge. We're competing with the private sector for pilots, competing with hospitals for great doctors, so we face some of the same recruitment challenges that people in Canada face. We have a very different kind of unique—many find it fantastically exciting and interesting—career opportunity, but it is not for everyone.

Those are some of the other challenges we face as well when we try to recruit people.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Forster.

We'll now move to Mr. McColeman, please, for five minutes.

We're in the second round.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Forster, can I refer you to the Auditor General's report, page 1?

There has been talk here today, and your response has been, “We cut 20 offices”, or whatever the number was. The 2002 report and the 2006 report of the Auditor General identify that there were systemic problems long before deficit reduction and closing new offices.

Can you explain why those systemic problems existed in those two previous reports? You seem to be hanging your hat on one statistic, which was cutting offices, when the problem existed in those earlier audits.

4:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

John Forster

I don't mean to imply that the problems we have in recruiting are solely due to the cuts that were made. As the Auditor General's report shows, it has always been a challenging area. The selection of recruiting offices that we offered up to cut during deficit reduction, I think, just exacerbated the problem. I did not intend to imply that it was the sole causal factor for that.