Evidence of meeting #61 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would love to have seen the Auditor General comments on the other two areas he did audit: early detection and intervention, and continuous improvement. I wish he had audited the first area of the strategy, namely, on the promotion of mental health.
Several RCMP officers have come to me and expressed their frustration at the lack of diversity within the RCMP's middle and top management ranks. When I say “diversity,” it includes women. It includes indigenous people. It includes visible minorities. It includes people with disabilities.
I know that frustration leads to mental illness problems.
Now, coming to specifics, I'll continue with what Mr. Christopherson was asking. The Auditor General clearly says that you did not commit the human and financial resources needed for the full and effective implementation of the strategy. Specifically, he says that the RCMP did not allocate budgets to support it.
I know you spent some money, but the question is whether the amount you allocated was adequate.
4:15 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
In some areas, I think the criticism is that the money allocated was inadequate. I think the major criticism, as I understood it, was that there wasn't a sort of comprehensive business approach to estimating, securing, and providing commensurate funding for all of those initiatives. That's what I understood to be the principal criticism.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
My point is that we are in the third year of a five-year plan. It's almost two-thirds over. At this point, to say that there was not an adequate budget for implementation is a problem, because we only have two years left.
You also said that the Auditor General examined only two of the five years, so he did not provide a complete view on the work being done.
What is the work being done on the promotion side of the strategy?
4:15 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
Okay, I'll invite Dan to speak to that.
There are multiple approaches to the promotion of the strategy across the existing hierarchy of the organization. It is a very decentralized organization, with commanding officers in each division charged with the identification of champions, who exist in all of the divisions with initiatives. We can name a series of initiatives that happened across the organization. That is, by and large, the promotion component of the strategy.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
In the middle and top management levels, how much diversity is there now?
4:15 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
I thought it was very good. We have very good numbers in terms of diversity. I take advice from a number of committees on diversity and gender issues. Dan will have our numbers, but they're very good.
4:15 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
Yes.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Thank you.
I have a question for the Auditor General.
When is it possible for you to go back to look at the remaining parts of the strategy, the first three areas of the strategy?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you.
Currently, we don't have any plans to do that. I think part of what might be important, though, is our finding in the course of the audit that the RCMP didn't have an approach to really report on the overall success of the plan.
If they were to develop a way to measure whether the strategy was doing what it was supposed to do, we would expect that should include all of the components of their strategy. We would hope that at some time in the future, the RCMP would be able to report on the success of the strategy, including the components that we didn't look at in the audit.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
You mentioned that the RCMP did not allocate budgets to support the components and that these were only partially implemented. Can we get some sort of numbers? How much was spent and how much do you think should have been spent?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I'll ask Ms. Butler to provide the details, but I think, fundamentally, we asked for some numbers about what was spent, and the RCMP wasn't tracking the numbers at that level of detail at that point in time.
I'll ask Ms. Butler if she has anything to add.
4:15 p.m.
Joanne Butler Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As the Auditor General said, we made inquiries at the national level as well as the divisional level to find out the costing for the mental health programs being implemented. It was explained to us that practices differed across divisions, but most importantly the programs, as they were being implemented, were being done, in some circumstances, on a voluntary basis. Salaries are obviously documented, but the actual time spent implementing, for example, R2MR or the peer-to-peer support would be difficult to cost, so that type of explanation was provided to us.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Commissioner, the Auditor General reported that one in five members who sought mental health support from a health services office did not return to work or took a discharge from the RCMP, and you seem to imply that is not a big number. At least for me, and maybe I don't have experience in organizations like the RCMP, that 20% appears to be a huge number. How can you imply that is not a big number?
4:20 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
I don't think I implied that it wasn't a big number. I was relating that we've had success, and one of the successes of our approach has been to secure an 80% return to work. There was a time in 2012, when I first became commissioner—and I spoke to some of these people in the room here today on the state of our health care in the organization—there were many people on unsupervised sick leave who had been on sick leave for years and years. Part of the success of our strategy in mental health, and, indeed, across the broader health management issues for the organization, is taking an approach, consistent with our efforts at transforming the culture, to have people come back to work, to be accommodated at work. There is a tension between the idea that people are police officers and that in order to be a contributing member of the RCMP you have to be able to carry your gun and be fit and make arrests and do all the things that go along with that, and we've evolved our thinking in that regard. I don't dispute that 20% is a big number; I'm just saying that 80% is a positive outcome.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Arya.
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Now we go back to the opposition side.
Mr. Jeneroux, go ahead, please, for the second round for five minutes.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here today.
First of all, to the members of the RCMP, thank you for your service, particularly for what you do for us here on Parliament Hill. It's a service that we all certainly appreciate. Please pass that on to other members of your force.
Before I get into the line of questioning I was prepared to do, I do want to give the Auditor General an opportunity to respond to some of the criticism that was levied towards the report, particularly the comments that the report wasn't presented in a balanced way.
I would like to clarify that for the record, Mr. Ferguson, if you wish to do some of that.
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First, I want to point out that we acknowledged in a number of places, and I've acknowledged every time that I've talked about this report, that the RCMP was one of the first organizations to put a mental health strategy in place. That was an important step, and I think I've acknowledged that. We acknowledged it in writing and I've acknowledged it every time I've spoken to it.
I think I've also said this is an important strategy that needs to succeed. It's not just important to the RCMP that this succeed, but also for the government as a whole because the RCMP is one of the first organizations to have this strategy in place. The whole government should be invested in helping the RCMP make this succeed. That would be the first thing.
In terms of some of the percentages, yes, you can look at the percentages both ways. What we were concerned about, for example, was the result in the survey indicating that 51% of the people on sick leave said they did not have timely access to mental health programs and services if they needed them. You could have put that as 49% said they did. We put it as 51% said they did not.
Of on-active-duty members, 25% essentially said they would not have timely access if they needed it. So we could have put it as 75% said that they did. We put it as 25% saying that they didn't think they would, because we feel that's an important number: 25% of the people, most of whom have probably never had to access these services, were saying that they were not sure they were going to be able to get access to the services if they needed them. To us, that's the significant message.
Yes, you can talk about 75%, for example, feeling as if they would, but the important thing is that when they do need the services and they are off-duty sick and they're getting them, then all of a sudden the number goes to 51%.
A much smaller number of people have had to access those services. The 51% is of a small number, the 25% is of a large number. I'm not trying to say that the RCMP is not taking this seriously or that they don't see this as important. What we're trying to say is that we think there's still significant room for them to improve on this. It's important that they improve and succeed and that they get support from other organizations to help them succeed. When 25% of the active members who responded to the survey say they're essentially not sure they would get timely access to mental health services if they needed them, we think that shows significant room for improvement.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Thank you for that.
Commissioner, I want to talk a little about the process of the return to work. I'll read a quote from a Canadian Press story:
A number said they were not offered meaningful work when they returned from sick leave, or believed the organization was encouraging them to accept a medical discharge.
I think I have about 30 seconds left, but do you mind just walking us through as much of the process as you can on how they are assessed and who eventually makes the decision on allowing them to come back or not? I say that in the context of the 50% who would come back to work, but not to the job they were doing prior to being on sick leave.
4:25 p.m.
Commr Bob Paulson
One of the challenges we have in bringing people back to work and engaging in the management of their case is the stigma that attaches to members coming back to the work site and not fulfilling “the normal duties”: get in the car; take calls; investigate; get on the road; strap on your gun; and do those things.
In some cases we need to have a progressive return to the work site, because a number of conditions are put on the person's return to the work site that prevent them from doing those things. I can see how some members would feel a stigma is attached to their returning to less than full duties. That's part of the challenge we have to make sure they are managed, that their supervisors and the team are lit up to the fact that you have to help bring these people along.
That's why our securing of almost 30 case managers across the country is huge. Because we rely on the health care of all the provinces where we could use the professional services of, say, some of the existing organizations that help other professions get back to work, that's what we're creating on our own initiative within the organization.
It is a work in progress. It's getting better. We're improving our rate of getting people back to work. I say this somewhat anecdotally, but I know there is data to support it, that we are improving in terms of the stigma issues attached to the mental health disability.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
Now we'll go back to Ms. Mendès, please, for five minutes.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank everyone for being here.
I'd also like to say how commendable it was to introduce a mental health program for your members, and it continues to be a worthwhile initiative. As Mr. Ferguson said, the entire government should follow your example.
That leads me to this question for Mr. Ferguson.
Mr. Paulson talked a lot about the fact that your audit focused on just two of the strategy's areas. Could you tell us why the audit did not take the other three areas into account?