Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Be very quick, please.

[Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefits, and Services Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

The fact that we have side-by-side listening rather than call recording is a major issue. It puts us in the situation where we don't have an accurate reading of the error rates all the time, exactly as the Auditor General pointed out. We did an internal audit ourselves and found we had error rates in line with what the Auditor General said. So we've developed an action plan for training, and we have a new training process called, “gating and nesting”, which I'm happy to explain if we have enough time for that.

Then the big change will be the technology that allows the call recording, so that in headquarters we will be able to monitor people in the field and determine their accuracy rates. When systematic errors are being done, we'll be able to fix those with new information.

The other part of the technology, which will be very important, is skills-based routing. That means that when a caller calls, they're going to be hooked up with the right agent at the right tier level much more quickly and they will be more likely to get a right answer. I think quite a lot is going to happen to improve our accuracy over the course of the next year. We'll be able to measure our accuracy much better and we're going to be able to respond through better training and through that call recording and skills-based routing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Arya, please.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me understand. The Auditor General's report says that the inaccurate response rate is 36%. The number quoted in your report says 6%. Now you're saying that your internal audit found that the inaccuracy response rate is in line with the Auditor General's finding. Is my understanding correct?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Our internal audit showed that we had an error rate of 20%, but it is a considerably different—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

When did that internal audit report come out?

[Frank Vermaeten]

It's actually an internal evaluation that was done probably about a year and a half ago.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Since then, what things have you done to make sure that these numbers are not as big as they were?

[Frank Vermaeten]

We've put in place a new training process. It's just being rolled out now. We have it in one centre. It's called our gating and nesting—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I don't understand one thing. The CRA has been around for a very long time. The taxpayers are finding this difficult on a daily basis. We know that. In fact, on CBC there was a report about Marica Peel. She has been fighting the CRA for three and a half years to show that she's a single mom. She said she has spent hours on the phone trying to get answers from the CRA. I don't know whether your agent on the phone told her that an official separation agreement is sufficient. She got it, but then after a month, the CRA told her that it was not going to work.

How is that? What are the options available to taxpayers who have been given an inaccurate response?

[Bob Hamilton]

First off, we aren't able to talk about specific taxpayer circumstances. I just want to clarify that.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

No, let me be clear. I'm not asking about that particular person. I'm talking about the 36% of the time that the agents have given an inaccurate response, and how, based on the response, a taxpayer has taken some action. Later—maybe one month later, maybe one year later, maybe five years later—the CRA tells them that that was not what they were supposed to do. For example, the agents may tell someone, “You don't need to keep the documents forever; you can destroy them.” That person destroys them. After five years, the CRA tells that person, “No, you should have kept the documents.” What option does the taxpayer have in this?

[Bob Hamilton]

Again, not commenting on a specific case, but in general—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

As I very clearly said, I am not going—

[Bob Hamilton]

No, I'm going to answer your question.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to answer the question. I just want to make it absolutely clear that I'm not referring to a specific case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's three times.

[Bob Hamilton]

We do have provisions such that, if you get incorrect information from the CRA, we have the ability to waive interest and penalties. Those options are available in a general way, so that can happen. I'm not saying that it happened in this case, but that option is available. We do strive to make sure that we give the proper information.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

It goes to “he said, she said”, and saying that it's not right. How can the taxpayer prove it? As the CRA, you are a big machine. You have the authority. You have the law behind you, but as usual, the taxpayer doesn't have that kind of strength.

[Bob Hamilton]

All I can say is that we do have the ability to do that, and taxpayers can raise those issues with us.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

In your response, you say that you're proud of the work that your employees carry out every day. Who are those managers who gave you the internal report stating that 90% of the callers were able to reach you? That is a totally inaccurate report. Are you still proud of those managers who are responsible for that?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'm actually very proud of the people who work at the CRA. I spent my first year visiting most if not all of the call centres. I've sat beside some of the people answering the phones, and I've sat in the rooms where they're trying to direct the calls through the system we have.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Most of the employees are good, but what about the managers who managed the wrong system of reporting?

[Bob Hamilton]

I want to say that I am actually very proud of the people who work on our systems, and I think they're doing the best job they can with the technology they have. They've actually shown some innovation and a lot of integrity here.

We're going to give them the tools they want. On the reporting side, in the past we have focused our reporting on meeting the “80% within two minutes” objective. We are now broadening that out to, I think, provide a more comprehensive view of what's going on.

As I said earlier—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

It was 80% in two minutes?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'm sorry?