Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2018

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

To be clear, the chief of defence staff gave me clear direction. My mandate is to deliver results on these reports, and he told me I would be there for three years at least to make good on that, and you'll see the issuance of these reports on that. He's reduced my scope of responsibility so that, one, I can focus solely on professional military education and the profession of arms; and two, so I can report to the highest management body of the chain of command, which is the Armed Forces Council.

I have a direct link to the decision-makers to ensure that we can bring the changes required to deliver on these reports.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. That's helpful. I appreciate that.

Deputy, thank you very much. That was the kind of answer I was looking for, and we can disagree.

To your last point, I didn't expect that it would be the same cost to turn out world-class elite professional military leaders, the same way a university would, and give them a degree at the same time. That's not practical. However, when we're spending that much more money and not getting the value added, then I bring your attention to the conclusion that the Auditor General came to, and this should be your biggest worry, in my humble opinion. I'll quote from page 23:

We concluded that the Royal Military College of Canada could not demonstrate that it produced officers at a reasonable cost, and we concluded that there were weaknesses in military training.

I'll jump ahead to the last paragraph:

the Royal Military College of Canada risks becoming just another university and not providing the Canadian Armed Forces with the leaders it requires.

Again, yes, I think we accept that it's going to cost a little more money to have that level of professionalism, but to spend that much more, twice almost, and not deliver the type of officers that the mandate spells out is a failure, and in my opinion, an abysmal one.

I see you're anxious to get to the mike; fine. I'll give you a question that you can focus on for that. I'm going to the Auditor General next, so I'll give you that heads-up.

When will we start to see measurable results?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson. Next or now? You're going to the Auditor General now, or after Ms. Thomas?

Ms. Thomas.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

—to the deputy, and then I have just one quick question to the auditor, and then I'm done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay. Ms. Thomas.

[Jody Thomas]

I believe we produce high-quality officers. I don't just think, I know, the officers in the Canadian Armed Forces are extraordinarily high quality, demonstrating that there's value for money and that we are getting a different quality of officer out of RMC. That work has begun. It starts now. It will be ongoing. It's not something we're going to take our eye off at all.

That we did not demonstrate it doesn't mean necessarily that we have not done it. The work ahead of us is our performance measures to be able to prove that we are producing high-quality officers, an officer cadre that is worthy of this kind of investment. Demonstrating it, I do believe we produce very high-quality officers who have the highest ethics, professional training, and academic standards.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Nobody is questioning the calibre of our current officers. The point is that they're not any better going through that expensive system than if they go through the alternate systems.

Thank you, Chair, for the indulgence. I do appreciate it.

I have one last question, to the Auditor General.

Sir, you may or may not have had a chance to see the action plan, but reviewing the government responses and your interaction with them, are you satisfied at this point that the department has a grip on this and that they're going in the right direction to get the type of outcomes that the deputy has just outlined and that we do agree is our desired outcome?

[Michael Ferguson]

As you well know, it really takes an audit for us to give an opinion on something, and the question is about something that we haven't audited.

What I will say, though, is that there is the report, the special staff assistance visit report, the SSAV report with the 79 recommendations, plus the other 11, and there is our report. What we have seen and what we said in our report was that there have been other studies of the Royal Military College before that identified many of the same types of issues that either we found or the SSAV report found.

What I see it as right now is an opportunity for National Defence and the Royal Military College to use both the SSAV report and our report to put together a real action plan. The SSAV report, again, identified a number of places that needed more study, which concerned us. We can accept that there are places that need more study, but what we would want to see is that in terms of whatever concrete actions have been identified for the SSAV report, the ones that come out of the further study will be added; that there will be a comprehensive inventory of all the concrete actions that come out of the SSAV report, out of our report, and out of the further studies, so that then people can see what is going to be done.

I see that really as the opportunity. We have heard from the witnesses a desire to put in place and act on their action plan, and the discussion today has impressed on everybody the need to actually do that.

This is a starting point. We'll have to wait and see what actions actually happen, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that this is going to be the right starting point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

I have one quick question for Ms. Thomas, and then Ms. Gallant will have the final question of the day.

You speak of training and putting out quality, officer-type graduates. Are you attracting elite students, the cream of the crop? We say we expect elite at one end, but what about the other end? Are we getting students who want a free education as their number one reason for coming? Are we getting students who want military training, as in their whole life they've wanted to be in the military, they've wanted to be an elite officer. Is that who we are attracting, or are we attracting those who say their dad or mom or whoever went through military training and they guess they're on the same road. Do we need to do a better job in recruiting elite students, for example, to the Royal Military College?

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question. The academic and social expectations of the individuals who are applying are at the highest standard in the province and across the country. The young people we are attracting to RMC, high, high, high academic averages, active in sports, active in volunteering in their community, good social awareness. It's quite extraordinary the recruits we get and it's always been like this from RMC.

I remember when I was in Trinity University, as I was telling the auditor earlier, women were not allowed to go to RMC when I entered university, it was two years later that women were allowed to enter RMC. The standards for the people then who were applying, Ontario scholars, as an example. It is the same today. We attract the best of the best. It's not people who just want a free ride.

The program is too difficult. Between the academic expectations, the athletic expectations, the leadership expectations, and just the rigour of military life, nobody is going to come to the college for a free education when you have to get up every morning and do PT, you have to get dressed, you have to go to class, you have to put on a uniform, and you have to march around the campus. Expect you have required sports every afternoon and required study time. That structure doesn't attract people who are just looking for easy and free.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Ms. Gallant, please, it's your turn.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If you were charging tuition, what would the dollar amount be, and would it be graduated for the subsequent years?

[Jody Thomas]

The cost per student is $55,000. We've not worked out—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

All right. So civilians with no intention of joining the military, they're not even offered--an opportunity, okay. So there are no--

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

If I may, there are opportunities for civilians to take courses. They do a lot in distance learning and through other programs, particularly on the post-grad side. I'd have to check. I don't have the figures for tuition. I haven't done the reimbursement of tuition for someone recently, so the figures are not in my head. But there is, if a civilian takes a course or students because of their desire to leave before graduation, there is a set tuition fee that they would reimburse.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Are there post-grad studies that civilians can take and get a Ph.D. there?

[Jody Thomas]

Yes, there are master's and Ph.D. programs at RMC, but we don't charge tuition to anybody who enters the four-year program. They go through as a cadet and enter the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Then for the masters and Ph.D. students, what is the tuition?

[Jody Thomas]

We'll get you those figures.

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

The majority of students are military. A master's degree like the Master of Defence Studies is an RMC degree, it's offered through the Canadian Forces College in Toronto, so that matches up with our mid-grade major, like colonel, professional military education program. Other master's degrees are offered. There are sponsored post-grad for military officers, for example, in the cyber program or for advanced engineering to support important work with assistant deputy minister materiel or under a specialist program that we need through the forces.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Would the master's and Ph.D. also be available to foreign students?

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

We don't have many foreign students at the military college. We have a foreign program where students operate out of RMC Saint-Jean because of capacity, and they do most of their distance learning program through RMC. We have an exchange program of one semester with a few military academies around the world for some of the students. Some semesters, we have a student from Annapolis at RMC, and one of our students is in Annapolis for a semester.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you. Those are all my questions.