Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2018

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

Absolutely.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You honour 150 years of history and tradition admirably, and we want this to continue for you. This, of course, requires good behaviour and a sense of ethics, and that is the kind of behaviour we expect from those who have the honour of wearing our uniform and defending our country, sometimes on the international stage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Deltell.

We have a couple of minutes left, and maybe I'll ask a couple of questions.

As we prepare our study, every once in a while there will come a question and we may want some clarification. The OAG reported that there was some discord between the military leadership and the academic leaders. I think you've already talked about part of the problem, in that the military was transferring out, rotating out, some of those who would be in instructor positions.

I have two questions. What is the strategy to bring in more academic leaders from the military? Is there a balance there? You want academia, and you also want those with a lot of military experience or only military experience. What's the balance that you're looking for?

The other question is dealing with the process of a young cadet coming up through the Royal Military College. What is the tuition? How does this work? Is their tuition paid for? Do they have partial tuition? Do they receive a salary if they are in the military, or as a cadet? What is the process there? How much training do some of these cadets have already before they come to the college, and are there those who sign up to receive the free education and have not had any cadet training in the past?

[Jody Thomas]

I'll maybe start with the second question and ask Admiral Cassivi to talk about the on-campus dynamics.

Young people—people of any age—can apply to Royal Military College as a way to be recruited into the Canadian Armed Forces and obtain an education. There are multiple ways of doing that. You can do that as a direct entry officer after you've finished your education. You can do it as a civilian university student through the civilian ROTP, and then there's this process. When students, young persons, are accepted into RMC, they are accepted both academically into the college and as members of the Canadian Armed Forces. They are assigned the rank of officer cadet. They attend the college for four years. In the summer, between their academic years, they go on job-specific training, whether it's basic officer training or trade-classification specific training, environment-specific training—army, navy, air force. When they leave the college, they have a university degree, they are commissioned into the Canadian Armed Forces, and they are then ready to begin training to become an officer in the forces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Is there a certain period of time that they must stay in the military? What is that period?

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

It's about eight years. I'd have to double-check that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

It was nine in my time, but programs do change slightly.

As far as your question is concerned, Mr. Chair, as it relates to the balance and the academic versus the military culture going there, so we need a balance. We do have some military professors on the faculty. The faculty delivers the academic program. It operates in the tradition and framework of usual universities, with academic freedom, a senate, and a structure that supports it. That is mainly largely populated by civilian university teachers with a small number of military faculty.

The military training wing that starts up with the commander as the head of the unit is there to provide the framework, the coaching, the mentoring, and the coordination of activities for all the other elements in ensuring that the leadership development goes on par. We need the balance of the two. There will always be tension. It's like any organization; there are cultures and subcultures. I'm a submariner. Surface fleet officers and submariners are different cultures. Army, navy, air force are different cultures. Fighter pilots and helicopter pilots are different cultures. There is always some tensions. Academic...needs more focus at this point for a whole bunch of valid reasons, or we need to do this military activity for a whole bunch of valid reasons, and there needs to be coordination. We'll always have folks who are focused on what they do, and there are some university teachers who believe that RMC is just any other university, and they're there to teach as if they were in any other university.

Through the process of modernization, we bring our military staff in and we orient them. We have opened the orientation period to the faculty members, too, to reassert why RMC is different from other universities, and in order for them to understand better what we're trying to achieve for the cadets through the training year. That helps reduce the tension. We're hoping through time that will help reduce the tension between the two.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Monsieur Massé, and then Mr. Christopherson.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will follow up on the questions I asked earlier.

In his report, the Auditor General pointed out that some years, in some programs, particularly the French studies program and the English literature program, there had only been one or two graduates. This probably indicates that certain programs need to be reviewed.

I understand the challenge. The college wants to offer a complete range of programs. As I mentioned earlier, I was a teacher as well as the director of a college in Gaspé, where I am from. In Gaspé, the challenge is to get enough students into the programs. There are many CEGEPs, in Rimouski, Matane, Quebec and Montreal. It's important to offer general programs that attract students. Keeping that up is important. Since the number of students is declining, the challenge is to not abolish programs, because that makes an institution somewhat less attractive.

So, three to five colleges got together and used new technologies to continue to offer their programs. This was done through distance teaching. These tools allow students, some of whom are in other cities and in certain cases at home, to benefit from a range of programs that are important to them. These can be college level programs in literature, languages, nature sciences or the humanities, for example.

Perhaps you could see whether you could use new technologies to offer certain programs in co-operation with the other colleges, so as to reduce costs.

Have these avenues been explored by the Royal Military College of Canada?

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

Thank you for your question.

These are indeed avenues we are exploring. I am from Gaspé myself. I lived in Gaspé and in Carleton-sur-Mer in the detachment.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Oh, really?

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

Yes, and those avenues are important. Some of this new technology is used in co-operation with other organizations, such as the Royal Military College St-Jean, which collaborates on quite a large scale with the Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu CEGEP.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I see.

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

As for accreditation, we want to make sure that if people leave the college, they can transition easily and obtain their CEGEP diploma, for instance. Professors from both campuses also collaborate. We also work with Queen's University, in Kingston. The networks are growing. We have to consider these possibilities. That is one of the tools we can access over time.

Moreover, students have changed. The report does not address that, but this concerns us from a pedagogical standpoint. Many civilian universities are also looking at this. We are faced with a new generation of students. Being connected has always been a part of their lives. They learn in different ways, and their social relationships are different. Their expectations are different. We consider that as well. We may have to modernize our teaching, and the way in which we offer programs.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Out of curiosity, what happens to students who do not obtain their diploma? I suppose that they have the opportunity of pursuing a military career? What is the game plan for the students who don't graduate from the college?

[RAdm Luc Cassivi]

If they do not obtain their diploma, what career management options do they have? They can leave the college. In that case, depending on the reasons why they did not obtain their diploma, they may have to reimburse part of the tuition fees for the time they were in college.

Otherwise, they can become non-commissioned military, in a trade of their choice, on condition that space be available in that area. They can also join the reserve force.

If they complete their basic officer's training, which ends at the end of the second summer, they have more options. If they don't complete their basic military qualification, then the situation is somewhat more difficult.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Christopherson, please, you have five minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

To pick up where I left off and to give the deputy an opportunity to respond, as you can see, in my opinion, the remarks were getting at the heart of the report and whether you're serious about making changes. To me, your remarks, Deputy, through you, Chair, at best are an unintended false positive impression. They've left that. At worst, they were a deliberate attempt to spin this committee, in which case I would worry about the seriousness of the commitment to make change.

Deputy, I now give you an opportunity to defend yourself and your remarks and anything else that you wish to say.

[Jody Thomas]

I apologize, Mr. Christopherson, that you thought I was trying to spin or mislead this committee. That's absolutely not my intent. It's not how I manage.

There are 90 recommendations out of the SSAV report that the CDS initiated before the Auditor General had begun his report, because we knew there was a problem at the Royal Military College. We agreed with every recommendation that the auditor made, and we are pursuing all of the recommendations. The SSAV report is about 50% complete now in terms of completing the actions, and we will do a follow-up on the SSAV and, of course, the Auditor General and this committee will be following his report very carefully.

Some of them will take time. Some of them are structural changes to the college. Some of them are structural changes to how we provide the education in the college. Some of the things we need to do will require investment in the college, because the infrastructure is not in good shape. That wasn't what they studied during the audit, but it is something we are responsible for ensuring we maintain.

The changes to the expectations of the cadets are well under way. I think this is a cyclical issue, and the education and the development of officers in the Canadian Armed Forces is something that requires constant attention. We have to evolve as the student body evolves, and we have to change our approach as the expectations of society change.

In this case, we've swung too far to the academic side of the house, and we probably reduced our focus on the military aspects. That is what Admiral Cassivi has been charged with examining, and as you've heard, he is very active in doing that.

I think there are some things in terms of the student behaviour, the officer cadet behaviour, that we need to consider. They're students, they're young, and they make mistakes. We would rather they make their mistakes at the college than on the battlefield, and they have opportunity to make mistakes. It is good that the Auditor General has pointed out to us some of the failings and perhaps how we dealt with them, but he also noted that when there was a serious transgression, it was dealt with immediately.

The health and welfare of the cadets at RMC are amongst the chief of the defence staff's and my greatest priority. He's changed the structure of the oversight of the college in order to ensure that he has a direct line of sight in, which is why it now reports through Admiral Cassivi, and Admiral Cassivi reports directly to him. It's why he initiated the SSAV report.

I don't think that we're spinning. I think there are changes that need to be made, but I will disagree with your characterization of the performance as being abysmal. I think there are ways we can improve how we show value for money, but I can't guarantee to you that the cost of educating a cadet at RMC will equal the cost at a civilian university. It is a different structure. It has different outputs. We have to prove those outputs have value and that we get good value from them.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Admiral Cassivi wanted to—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, I'm good, thank you. I'm tight on time. If you tell me I have lots, I'll gladly hear from him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You're a minute over, and I'll give you some more time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Than I'll gladly hear from the admiral.