Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gba.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Domingue  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Meena Ballantyne  Head of Agency, Status of Women Canada
Les Linklater  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Operations, Privy Council Office
Renée LaFontaine  Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Mitch Davies  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Nicole Kennedy  Director General, Strategic Policy, Cabinet and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Jacques Paquette  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Service Policy Branch , Department of Employment and Social Development
Neil Bouwer  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Policy Integration, Department of Natural Resources

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Mr. Davies, is there anything at the Department of Industry?

10:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mitch Davies

We made it mandatory last year that all employees in the department take the training. When they do, they gain the insight that this is about doing their jobs well and applying rigorous thinking. It's about seeking data sources and thinking things through. It's extremely well done. I would imagine that product could be exported to many jurisdictions that would benefit from it, because it's been prepared in a very professional way.

For me, that is a materially important step towards making this something that is embedded in the organization when you have 3,800 employees. We're at 90% now. We have to figure out where the last 10% are, but we'll follow up. When they have taken this, and they actually start to ask questions such as where they might find the data they need or how they might prepare themselves so they have the tools available when they are doing their work, I think that's when progress really takes hold. It's not just in a document; it actually becomes embedded.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

[Inaudible—Editor] part of those agreements you have with Statistics Canada.

10:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mitch Davies

That's exactly why we provided the funding to supplement information on particular women in education and technology, to have more facts on hand when we're doing the work we do.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Paquette.

10:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Service Policy Branch , Department of Employment and Social Development

Jacques Paquette

We've been doing it for quite a while. We have training in place. We have a centre of expertise that we are revamping as well. I would say that, at this point, we are also updating the guidelines and the tools that we have, because that's something that we need to do. One thing I would underscore is that data is always a challenge. Sometimes we do have data and sometimes we don't. Probably the first question is where to get the information. We are going to establish a network of policy analysts. We realize that some of the policy questions they're facing are difficult, even with training. This is especially true of some sectors that are not necessarily doing it very often, versus others that are used to it. Creating a community of practice where they can ask a question and seek some advice from those who have greater experience, we think, will help to get better results out of these assessments.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Those are elements that are interesting for us to take into account.

Thank you.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes, certainly, as we move forward in our report. I don't have any other questions on this side. We will come back to Ms. Shanahan.

I do have just one follow-up question from the chair on a passing statement that you made. That was in regards to—I think, from what my analysts also say—equality in hiring and percentages of equality in the workplace. I think that is where you, Ms. Ballantyne, were suggesting that we may or may not be in the top 10 in the world but that gender-based analysis goes much beyond percentages of different genders in the workplace. For every policy coming through, we need to ask if there is an analysis on it and if there has been adequate analysis.

Going back to the gender-based analysis, what are the leading countries? I know from speaking with you in the past that Canada is perhaps one of the guiding lights for other countries, and certainly our provinces look to Canada. Who is in that top 10? What other countries are there? Where is Canada when it comes to gender-based analysis?

10:30 a.m.

Head of Agency, Status of Women Canada

Meena Ballantyne

You're absolutely right in terms of differentiating between the tool and the actual goal it's trying to achieve. In terms of gender-based analysis as a tool, we have one of the best in the world. We've modelled it after the Europeans. That's where the “plus” came from. It's not just GBA; it's actually going deeper than the impact on women and men, and is looking at the ages of women, the income levels of women, the ethnicity, the language. Our tool has been modelled after some European tools, and we're now basically looked to as a model by other countries.

As I was saying to you, when we were at the United Nations committee on the status of women, we heard a lot about Canada, about the tools and the structures we have in place over here to advance us. The GBA tool, with the online course that my colleagues were referring to, has been looked to as a model in terms of how we're carrying this out in Canada.

We're all learning from each other. Basically we try to have this continuous improvement cycle so that as we get more feedback, or as we learn from other countries what they're doing with regard to the tool they started with from us, we then adopt their best practices as well.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Again, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, but it's not where the whole program of gender-based analysis is a fail, fail, fail. It's more in response to the Auditor General: how can we move it always to more enhance the program that is already viewed very well? That's why we appreciate reports from Auditors General and then responses from the different departments.

We'll move back to Ms. Shanahan, please.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you, Chair.

Yes, I'm interested too in really the component of how we are going to build better policy using gender-based analysis. We don't want to just give lip service to it, we want to really make it happen.

What I'm seeing is that it's a culture change within departments, with long-standing employees coming from very different places. I very much like this idea of the champions network and the community of practice that I'm hearing here.

Ms. Ballantyne, perhaps you could talk a little bit about how we're going to get behaviour change in the workplace here.

10:35 a.m.

Head of Agency, Status of Women Canada

Meena Ballantyne

I think you've pointed to a number of initiatives that we're all working on, but I think the most important culture change is the leadership from the top—from the government, from our minister. Our minister is a very activist minister. She is really gung-ho. She's taken the course, all her staff are taking the course, or have taken it. I know that at the standing committee on women, there will be a recommendation, or they're considering whether all ministers and their staff take this course so that they can then play the challenge function with their deputies.

I think it's coming from the top. There is a real sense of movement here. As I said to my deputy colleagues, because my minister has written to all her colleagues and is not shy about pressing them, as my colleague said, at the cabinet table or earlier on.... For example, on the infrastructure funding for shelters for women, that was a concerted effort made by her and all of us to really push and say that this was really important for women's issues, which bore fruit early on.

On some of the work that colleagues at Treasury Board will be doing in terms of the regulatory frameworks, we'll be looking at the regulations, which is different from legislation. There is a real rigorous impact statement and cost-benefit analysis. I think if we can tap into the regulatory side of things, and we can tap into the evaluation, which can then inform policies, I really feel very optimistic that this time around we'll be able to make progress.

You know, I'd like to say that there is this will, there is this engagement, there is this leadership, and nothing precludes us, as the democratic process unfolds, from going down the mandatory route. As our colleague has said, I think if it is mandatory, as might be necessary but we don't know yet, it's certainly not a sufficient requirement. We need the training, we need the capacity, we need all that. You could make it mandatory and it could still fail.

So let's try this approach and let's see where it goes.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right.

Thank you very much. I think that concludes our meeting for today.

We had many departments, along with the Auditor General, appearing before our committee. We appreciate all of you being here. Thank you for the good work you do. We look forward to hearing in the future, where the report has been issued from this committee...and that the different departments are looking at it as well.

We are adjourned.