Evidence of meeting #93 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Susan Seally  Principal, Human Resources, Office of the Auditor General
Sylvain Ricard  Assistant Auditor General, Corporate Services, and Chief Financial Officer, Office of the Auditor General

April 24th, 2018 / 3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.)) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Since we have a quorum, I think we can call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome, Mr. Ferguson, and Mr. Ricard, Mr. Bergin, and Ms. Seally, thank you very much for being with us.

This is meeting number 93 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. We will be looking at the main estimates 2018-19: vote 1 under the Office of the Auditor General, referred to the committee on Monday, April 16, 2018.

I believe you have opening statements, Mr. Ferguson, so we are all yours. Thank you so much.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you.

Madam Chair, we are pleased to have this opportunity to discuss our 2016-2017 Departmental Results Report and our 2018-2019 Departmental Plan.

With me today is Sylvain Ricard, Assistant Auditor General of Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer; Susan Seally, Principal of Human Resources; and Ron Bergin, Principal of Strategic Planning.

The Office of the Auditor General supports Parliament and territorial legislatures by providing independent and objective assurance, advice and information about government financial statements and the management of government programs. The Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development carries out our mandate related to the environment and sustainable development. We conduct all of our audits in accordance with Canadian auditing standards. Our audits and our system of quality control are subject to internal practice reviews and independent external reviews to provide assurance that you can rely on the quality of our work.

In addition to carrying out our audit work, we help to advance legislative audit methodology, and accounting and auditing standards. We also work internationally, supporting projects funded by Global Affairs Canada and promoting better managed and accountable international institutions.

As reflected in our financial statements, our net cost of operations was $92.5 million in the 2016-17 fiscal year, and we employed the equivalent of 555 full-time employees. With these resources we delivered 88 financial audits, five special examinations, and 22 performance audits. This represents all of the planned audit work except for our performance audit on preventing corruption in immigration and border services, for which the planned tabling in the fall of 2016 was postponed to the spring of 2017.

In our results report, we note that parliamentary committees reviewed 72% of the reports we presented to Parliament in the 2016-17 fiscal year. This represents an increase from 59% in the 2015-16 fiscal year and exceeds our target of 65%. In total, we participated in 44 parliamentary committee hearings and briefings on our audit work.

Audit committee chairs and senior managers of the organizations for which we performed financial statement audits continued to state their agreement that our audits are understandable, fair, timely, and add value. For senior managers of the organizations for which we performed performance audits, results were below our target. These senior managers continued to be concerned that our audits focused on negative findings and didn't include enough positive observations to provide balanced reporting. It is our view that we can add the most value by examining areas that are likely to involve high risk and opportunities for improvement.

Our measures of organizational performance remained generally positive. In particular, in our internal practice reviews, which serve as a key quality control in our audit methodology, the reviewers found that our audit reports were appropriate and supported by proper evidence. Our 2016-2017 Results Report identifies several indicators of the impact of our work along with measures of our operational performance, which are attached to this statement as Appendix A.

Let me now turn to our 2018-2019 plan. Our strategic framework identifies a number of client, operational, and people management objectives that we use to manage the office and direct our continuous improvement efforts.

In the 2018-2019 fiscal year we will focus most of our improvement efforts on three of these objectives. First, to ensure effective, efficient and accountable office governance and management, we will enhance our information technology security controls. In a recently completed internal audit on managing IT security which is available on our website, auditors noted that we had not implemented all of the controls required by Treasury Board policy. We also need to renew the IT infrastructure that supports our audits and have begun to implement a multi-year plan to accomplish this.

Second, to develop and maintain a skilled, engaged, and bilingual workforce, we will implement the next steps in our professional development and second language plans. We will also better match our audit and support service requirements with the human resources we have available to do the work.

Third, to ensure that we are financially well managed, we need to address the financial challenges that we're facing. Budget 2018 has promised us new funding of $8.3 million. This will help us address some of the demands on our internal services, and help us deliver the 89 financial audits and eight special examinations that we are required to do in the 2018-19 fiscal year. We're currently assessing our ability to deliver all the 27 performance audits included in our 2018-19 plan.

The Office of the Auditor General is funded through various appropriations and transfers. Under vote 1 of the main estimates for the 2018-19 fiscal year, the Office of the Auditor General's program expenditures for this committee to consider reporting to the House is $69 million. Our planned number of full-time equivalent employees is 550.

In conclusion, Madam Chair, my staff and I look forward to continuing to serve you in the coming year by delivering products of the highest value. We thank you for your ongoing support of our work. We would be pleased to answer the questions of the members of the committee.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Thank you very much, M. Ferguson. That was very detailed.

We will begin going around the table with Mr. Lefebvre, who has seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Ferguson, thank you once again for being here with us. As you mentioned in your report, people's comments seem to indicate that they are happy with your services. Also, I have been on this committee for two and a half years, and it's an honour to receive you here frequently and to work with you to ensure that services and departments are accountable to the government.

Also, Mr. Ferguson, I'd like to congratulate you on your French. Your progress has been flawless. In my opinion, you are really a beacon in the public service, and you have proven that it is possible to succeed with hard work. I congratulate you on that.

I have a few questions on your plan, but your statement made me curious. In paragraph 7 you said that parliamentary committees reviewed 72% of the reports you presented, which represents a 59% increase. No, excuse me, that is not it. In any case, there was an increase as compared to the past. In your report, you compare this year to 2015-2016. Is that because it was an election year? Is it because Parliament is using your audits now more than it did before?

3:35 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

Over recent years, we noted an increase in the review of our reports. They are given greater consideration by Parliamentary committees, particularly because of the role played this committee, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. We have observed that this committee studies our reports a great deal, and I'm very pleased about that. It is thanks to the work of this committee that those percentages have increased.

Other committees consider commissioners' reports, and that is another important aspect. For instance, the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development focuses on the reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. We still have work to do to get to a point where a few other committees will consider our reports.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Fine, thank you.

I am curious to know why, in the past, this committee studied your reports less than it does at this time. During the previous parliamentary session, why did committees study your reports less than during the current parliamentary session?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

There could be several reasons.

For instance, during an election year, perhaps there are not enough committee meetings to examine all of the reports. Also, in the past, I believe that this committee only examined four chapters per report, even if a report contained seven audits.

However, as I mentioned, it seems to me that the committee is very aware of the usefulness of examining all of our audits.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

In paragraph 13 of your statement, in English, you say this:

Budget 2018 has promised us new funding of $8.3 million. This will help us address some of the demands on our internal services and help us deliver the 89 financial audits and eight special examinations.

They are hard to do.

I'm just curious about the word “some” in “This will help us adjust some of the demands.” Does this mean that you have a lot more demands? Is this budget increase not enough to address all of the demands? Obviously, the word “some” really piqued my curiosity.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

Yes, and you are right to pick up on that word.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

It was there for a reason, I assume.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

We have done an analysis, lately, of our workload and of the things we have to do, and the cost of being able to handle our extra work, particularly in our financial audit practice and also in our internal services, and to maintain the work that we do in our performance audits. All of those together, based on our estimate, is going to take more than $8.3 million.

Again, we are very glad to see that in this budget we're receiving $8.3 million. That will—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

When was the last increase to your budget? I don't think I saw that in your....

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

The last real increase, not just sort of inflationary—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Yes.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

—and that type of thing, I'm not sure when it was. It would have been before my time. I started in 2011.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

Wow.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

It would have been before that. So yes, and from all of those points of view, this $8.3 million is appreciated. However, in this period, we have to deal with things like some new audit mandates, the infrastructure bank, the Windsor-Detroit bridge as that gets up and running.

There are some things there that our new financial statement audit mandates that we have to do. There is the extra work that we now have to do in auditing the payroll expenses of the federal government because of the Phoenix system and the change in the way that system manages payroll. That takes us much more time and effort.

Over the last number of years, to keep our number of performance audits up to a level to provide to the committee, we have had to let slide some of our knowledge of business work, wherein we really try to get in and understand what's going on in departments without producing an audit report. That's something we're going to have to figure out how to get back. We can go for a year or two without doing as much of that as we should, but at some point our knowledge of the whole government big picture will become a bit stale. We need to figure out how to go back and get that knowledge.

That's why we used the word “some” in there. The funding is going to help us. As you said, it's the first time we've received an increase in a number of years, but we do have numerous demands on us to be able to meet our legislative mandate.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Thank you very much, Mr. Ferguson.

Mr. Deltell, you have seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Good afternoon, Madam Chair. I am pleased to see you in that position, even though I am also happy when our colleague from Alberta occupies it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Ha, ha! I prefer being on that side.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

That's good.

Auditor General, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your House of Commons.

I want to echo Mr. Lefebvre, who complimented you quite rightly on your French, Mr. Ferguson. You are really a model and an inspiration for everyone in the public service.

I, of course, listened to your comments. I would like to discuss four points with you.

By way of introduction, I want to say that it is always interesting to audit the auditor. This reminds me that when I was a journalist, I did a report on the Quebec Auditor General. As a first question I asked him who audited him. So we have this opportunity to do that together.

As a first point, you refer to the number of reports you have signed. There were 88. There are 555 staff members in your office, which has a budget of $92 million. Do you assess your reports in terms of the funds you have, or is it rather that since each report is unique, you have no budgetary target when you are given a mandate and must produce a report?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

No, we don't have a target like that.

Particularly for our performance audits, we identify program shortcomings. Often, at the end we recommend that funds be added to those programs so as to improve them and resolve issues.

Of course, when we have the opportunity to find savings in programs, we point it out. In general, we have objectives for each of our audits, but their purpose is to determine if the programs are working as planned, and if there are shortcomings. We aren't trying to save a certain amount of money or to reach a given objective.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Okay, but based on the fact that you're the one who calls the shots to make an investigation, because in your report you're talking about investigations.... An investigation can be an open bar, because we always want to know something else. We say, “Oh, we have addressed this issue, but there are some other things that we should address for this report.”

So when you launch an inquiry for a report, do you have a budget in mind, or do you say that you'll do it when it is finished?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

I am sorry, I answered in reference to a results-based budget.

In general, for each audit, we plan a budget and a time frame. We have an objective for each one of the audits. Generally, you need 6,000 to 8,000 hours to complete a performance audit. We follow a process, and the first step is to plan the audit and determine its scope. After that, we carry out the audit.

Of course, we begin with a budget and that is part of the process; we determine the scope of the audit in order to ensure that the work will go in a certain direction. We cannot look for the answer to just any question during the audit.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Okay.

Do you do a cost assessment when you've completed the report?