Public Accounts Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes.

[Karen Hogan]

I would ask Ms. McCalla to answer this question.

However, I know that just over 1,000 people who tested positive were not contacted.

Ms. McCalla, could you give us the exact percentage of people who were contacted?

[Carol McCalla]

Certainly. Of the 8,000 incoming travellers who had tested positive, we found that the agency had not contacted 14% of them, or 1,156.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you know...

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am sorry, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné; your time is up.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank all the members today for joining us. I also especially want to add my congratulations to the Office of the Auditor General for ensuring that the workers who were on strike previously are now back in the office. Hopefully we can begin a good process of ensuring that they can continue to have a good, safe and dignified workplace. Thank you very much for that hard work.

Regarding this audit, I think what we're seeing here is something very clear and very blatant, which is that we don't have a nationwide quarantine system at our borders. That seems to be a very obvious fact. As an Albertan, I am particularly troubled by the situation in Montreal that was mentioned by my colleague from Quebec, with the mayor having to send support to the airport in order to see some confidence in public health. That's simply unacceptable.

I want to draw some comparisons with my home province, where this didn't happen. We didn't have a city authority who had the ability to do that. I want to draw particular attention to the fact that Calgary was also one of the four cities—along with Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal—accepting international flights during this period, yet there's no record of any hotel quarantine violations in Alberta. Most Albertans know there were violations. People were upset about these violations. Members of the airport and the city themselves tried to address these concerns.

I understand from reading this report that there was some requirement for co-operation by provincial authorities in order to make sure there was a particular level of enforcement. Provincial leadership in Alberta, and also in Saskatchewan in this case, had either refused or did not want to really tackle this issue by adopting the regulatory procedures or the authorities required to enforce some of this, such as the ticketing system, for example.

Despite having had years of the global pandemic, despite understanding that we didn't have this co-operative system, we're at the point where we've had this kind of hodgepodge of jurisdictions when we really need a nationwide one. There's really a large concern. My concern is with PHAC's ability to work with provincial governments to sign on to things like the Contraventions Act, so offences under the Quarantine Act can be dealt with in other provinces through this simple process of issuing tickets. It is my understanding that Alberta and Saskatchewan have refused to sign this—or maybe some clarity can be provided here—to severely limit the ability of police to enforce quarantine measures and issue fines for infractions.

The audit clearly shows that the results of this gap were...in B.C., for example, a jurisdiction just west of Alberta, over $3 million in fines were issued for quarantine infractions, so we know they were happening. In Ontario, there was almost $18 million in fines, but in Alberta, despite the fact that it was home to one of the country's four airports that accepted international flights, the authorities issued $0 in fines. This shows a massive gap in our ability to enforce public health measures, and it leaves Albertans in particular more vulnerable to new variants when we can't understand or enforce these things.

Could the Auditor General perhaps comment on the follow-up on some of this work? Also, could Dr. Kochhar comment in relation to what the ministry plans to do about this huge, obvious inequity?

[Karen Hogan]

Mr. Chair, I'll go first and then I'll leave some time for Dr. Kochhar.

The purpose of the ticketing regime was really to see national enforcement of quarantine measures across the country, and it was clear from our findings that the Public Health Agency hadn't worked through the cohesive enforcement requirement across the country. You're right that some provinces and territories did not sign on to the Contraventions Act; hence, ticketing could not be done.

When you put in a requirement, you really have to think through monitoring and enforcing. Many tools could have been used, and that is something that needs to be improved to deal with better planning for another health crisis, should one occur.

I'll leave it to Dr. Kochhar to add to that.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I will just add, Mr. Chair, that as much as we were working very closely with the RCMP and provincial and municipal law enforcement agencies to verify compliance with the quarantine functions and obligations order, there was very good co-operation. Specifically, failures to comply with quarantine, isolation and other obligations are actually offences under the Quarantine Act.

Those who received their test results directly from the companies and from provinces and territories also received the same information for follow-up. This happened electronically and immediately.

We continued to work with them. Of course, the Contraventions Act is something that in that context is very specifically not in certain provinces, but we continued to make sure that there were multiple layers where we could reach a traveller regarding the result and ask them to do the right thing, not only with the fines and enforcement but also through compliance promotion, by calling them and advising them about their obligation to have those periods of isolation, quarantine or the daily testing.

Those were the components that we tried to institute in addition to our ability to really identify positive individuals through the border testing.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Doctor. That ends our first round.

For the second round, we turn to Mr. Duncan. You have the floor for five minutes, sir.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I want to follow up. I'm a bit rattled—I think that would be the right word—about the lack of information or response on some of the allegations in the hotel quarantine program.

The title of the report is “Enforcement of Quarantine and COVID‑19 Testing Orders”. Ms. Hogan, through the Chair, can you explain why this program was not studied more in this report? I will maybe provide you with an opportunity. Is this something that perhaps your office is looking at or will do a study on going forward?

We talk about the effectiveness of government programs or policies. Is this something you're going to be studying or you could confirm to this committee that you're going to study? If not, why not?

[Karen Hogan]

We currently don't have any plans to look at other border measures. That is considering where we are in the pandemic. That can obviously change as we move forward. We monitor the environment and make decisions based on that.

When it comes to speaking with Canadians directly, we found in other audits that there's sometimes a hesitancy to want to speak to us, especially when it's a very personal matter.

We looked at how the Public Health Agency was ensuring security. It really is the agency's responsibility to ensure that there is adequate security at these facilities. As I said, we found that they were following up on incidents.

If we decide to look at another audit on border measures, we will obviously consider it, but since the government-authorized hotels are gone and since now there are just quarantine facilities, we could consider that as we move forward. As I said, however, our current plan is not to do a third audit on border measures.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I may be following up perhaps through the committee here on some recommendations on that, because there were charges laid.

We talk about a gender-based analysis and the lens through which we look at this if we have allegations of women being sexually assaulted through this program and some of the measures. I'm just going to note through the CTV News article that minister Blair, who was public safety minister at that time, stated that police had arrested two men accused of sexual assault related to quarantine measures, one at a Montreal hotel and another tied to a compliance check in Oakville, Ontario. The report stated that the accused in the situation there in Oakville had been trained by the Public Health Agency of Canada as a designated screening officer under the Quarantine Act.

Again, when we talk about gender-based analysis and protecting vulnerable populations from this, I just don't understand how a red flag is not raised there to say that this might be something....

Ms. Hogan, I agree. It's not your responsibility, obviously, to coordinate security, but the review of the government program of how employees are vetted, or trained, or if there are vulnerable populations or women who are having people visit their home when they are alone or something.... I'm just very surprised that this has not raised a red flag in any way as being worthy of an audit, particularly when it comes to a GBA+ lens.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you.

I believe that in the cases you're talking about, law enforcement was the right party to do that investigation, not our office. I'm happy they followed through on that. I will take your feedback under advisement as we consider whether or not we want to do another audit on the border and as we continue to improve our auditing through a GBA+ lens.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that. I'll clarify further that I wouldn't expect an investigation on those specific measures of the allegations. Law enforcement in a due process though court would obviously be most appropriate, but perhaps additional screening or security measures and an examination of how people were hired, how individuals went to people's homes, whether the individual was alone or whether they were accompanied by somebody, as well as recording documentation and so forth might be ways to review the program and the measures put in place through existing programs.

I have limited time left. I hope to elaborate if possible, if I get a further round. I just want to ask Ms. Hogan as well about the problem resolution process. Numerous colleagues so far have raised frustrations about where...and there have been media stories about an issue of glitch out with the ArriveCAN app, or somebody providing only the second dose proof, not the first, and being required to quarantine for two weeks.

As part of your review of the efficiency of these programs and the department's ability to respond to them, do you look at the complaint resolution or problem resolution process at all and whether Canadians are able to reach somebody to resolve small problems?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to cut you there so that we can get a brief answer from the auditor.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In this case, we did not look at the IT system and whether it was operating effectively, and we did not look at the complaint resolution. We were looking to determine whether or not the agency could explain to us whether these border measures were effective at limiting the spread. Recognizing that we were still in the midst of the pandemic, it was to inform future adjustments and responses.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

Turning now to Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today.

In looking at some of the key highlights of recommendations that the Auditor General has put forward, this question goes to Dr. Kochhar. Dr. Kochhar, if you wish to direct it to colleagues, that's fine.

One of those highlights reads as follows:

The agency should also improve its capability to achieve a consistent enforcement approach to border measures nationwide, including exploring other tools that could be used in all Canadian jurisdictions.

What do you make of that recommendation, Dr. Kochhar, and how has it proceeded? How have steps been taken to implement it at this point?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I will direct the question also to my colleagues here, but just to start in terms of the compliance piece specifically, we have a way to really promote compliance by having a clear communication package for anyone who is coming in through travel—borders and so on. The enforcement piece is also directed to gradually move people to a regime whereby they are self-directed to make the right kind of call.

For example, if you are a person who has come in and we need a day eight test done, our email system will generate that. Robocalls will remind the traveller that it is what we need to do, and those aspects in the compliance promotion world allowed us to gain much ground. In cases where we did not really have the ability to connect or get a response, we used the law enforcement agencies and door knocks—and I mentioned more than 540,000 door knocks in terms of that—so the enforcement was there.

I will shift this to Jennifer in terms of any other components, more importantly the ones that included ticketing or other aspects. Jennifer can probably explain a bit more in terms of the other tools we've used.

[Jennifer Lutfallah, Vice President, Border Measures Operations, Health Security and Regional Operations Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada]

Thank you. To reiterate some of the messages that have been outlined by the president, although PHAC could not issue contravention tickets across the country, we did have a national, consistent compliance and enforcement program. The president has outlined some of those components, but I will reiterate them.

Our compliance and enforcement program ranges from compliance promotion and education through warnings, ticketing and possible criminal prosecution. All travellers coming into Canada, regardless of where they enter, receive the same treatment by the Public Health Agency with respect to compliance and enforcement.

What I mean by that is that these individuals receive the compliance promotion emails and robocalls, as the president has outlined. They are also subject to compliance verification calls. These are the testing requirements that the president pointed out. As well, if there is cause, we refer them over to security companies for in-person compliance verification visits. If required, we send them over for law enforcement referrals.

We have undertaken work to respond to the Auditor General's recommendations with respect to compliance and enforcement, and work has commenced with law enforcement and police of jurisdiction to enhance our C and E posture. We undertook meetings with the police of jurisdiction, and we have come out with some short- to longer-term proposals to respond to some of the vulnerabilities that have been identified by the Auditor General.

To provide a couple of examples, what we're looking at with respect to a response is focusing law enforcement referrals on high and urgent priorities only. We will focus our efforts on those cases, as well as developing an enhanced technological solution to facilitate reporting.

On the other aspect you brought up with respect to more of a policy response, we are looking at mechanisms for how we can enhance our capability of enforcement. By that I mean ticketing or some other type of monetary mechanism to ensure compliance. However, those are in the initial discussion phases.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I'm afraid that is all your time.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] other recommendations that had already been taken up, Mr. Chair, but that was something that was unaddressed, so thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're very welcome.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue on the same topic. My understanding is that 1,156 people tested positive, but they were not reached by the agency.

My question is for Dr. Kochhar.

How is it that over a thousand people who tested positive were not contacted to ensure that they were complying with the health measures in place?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I'll start, and maybe Brigitte or Jennifer can pitch in on the aspect of where we are.

What we are talking about is in terms of the Auditor General looking at a whole spectrum of how many of those positives, which we could not tally, were actually contacted. There are a couple of pieces that I want to mention.

There were sometimes errors from the ArriveCAN app in terms of what they actually put into the electronic registration or the registration for the test, which did not enable us, at the very beginning, to immediately confirm that they were the same. Secondly, at times there were situations in which the results were received a little beyond the 96 hours, given that there was more of a virtual test, and it took time for us to really coordinate that.

However, we tried to reconcile the results as best we could in having an ability to really follow up, as I mentioned, through different layers, such as, for example, calls for all the others to do the right thing, to remind people that if they had been travelling, they needed to quarantine.

Brigitte, I don't know if you want to add anything to that.