Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2022

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased that we have the opportunity to have you with us today, Ms. Fox, Mr. Barbosa and Madam Auditor General, to discuss this report, which is very important.

I'll start with you, Madam Auditor General.

I think your opening remarks were quite revealing. Let me quote part of it:

…this is an example of results being slow to follow the department's original commitments. To improve the situation for first nations communities, actions have to catch up to the words. This committee's ongoing follow‑up is critically important.

What could you add to your findings of the last few years? For example, what more could you say about the fact that you made recommendations, that they were accepted and that there was even an action plan, but that, unfortunately, the objectives were not achieved?

What more could you say about that, Ms. Hogan?

[Karen Hogan]

Frankly, it saddens me to see that the problem is still not solved.

The original commitment was to end all the long‑term drinking water advisories by March 31, 2021. Now the deadlines are getting longer, and that still concerns me. The longer we push back deadlines, the more likely it is that another generation of families in first nations communities will grow up without access to safe drinking water. And yet, this is truly a critical need.

As we leave today's meeting, most of us will go to a sink to get a glass of water, without even thinking about it. There are so many first nations communities that can't do that, which is why, when it comes to something so fundamental to the health and well‑being of generations and entire communities, action should be taken.

I remain concerned when I see the delays getting longer. I encourage the committee and Indigenous Services Canada not to let these deadlines be pushed further.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan. You've provided us with some very useful information. It sets the stage for a series of questions that I'm going to ask Indigenous Services Canada next.

I'll try to stick to the facts as much as possible.

The committee has received several requests. We have made recommendations and produced status reports. We also awaited responses from Indigenous Services Canada.

I have some examples of delays in front of me, and I even wonder if we would have gotten an answer if we hadn't invited Indigenous Services Canada again.

For example, according to the OAG report, the status report due March 31, 2022, wasn't received; the status report due April 30, 2022, wasn't received; and the status report due April 30, 2022, wasn't received.

What we did receive was a letter on June 9 in response to the invitation of Indigenous Services Canada.

Ms. Fox, as public servants, how can you justify such a delay for several reports and responses requested by this committee?

[Christiane Fox]

First of all, we sent information to the committee on June 9. The committee's recommendations were reviewed and each one was taken into account according to the department's action plan and information.

We wanted to make sure that we were providing as complete information as possible. So we felt that certain elements were important for the committee. I am thinking, for example, of the work done on the First Nations Drinking Water Settlement. So we were a little bit late, but it was to make sure that we could give a more complete answer.

I understand that it's frustrating, but the reason for the delays is that we wanted, as much as possible, to be able to look at all of the committee's recommendations rather than just putting words on paper that didn't reflect the state of our work.

I understand that, and we are always prepared, Mr. Barbosa, our team and I, to come and talk to you about the situation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

The purpose of my first question was to try to understand why there were so many delays. I understand now that it was to provide us with better answers.

We'll look at those answers together.

With regard to the first recommendation raised, in the letter from Indigenous Services Canada, on page 7, it states:

Over a 10‑year period, since 2016 and until 2025‑26, the Government of Canada has committed over $5.2 billion to First Nations to build and repair water and wastewater infrastructure and support the effective management and maintenance of water systems on reserves.

This means that budget 2022 proposes to provide $398 million over two years, starting in 2022‑23, to support community infrastructure on reserve. Of this amount, at least $247 million will be invested to address water and wastewater infrastructure issues. Thereafter, several amounts are established and are offered.

My question is the following. If first nations used the funds for 873 projects, that means they received an average of $2,623 per project. Do you feel that these investments are sufficient to deal with a situation like the one before us?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a maximum of 20 or 30 seconds to answer the question. If necessary, you can come back to it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We'll come back to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll answer quickly. Basically, what we provided in the letter is really all the investments by category. We can now tell you how much money the department has set aside for first nations. A certain portion of our funding is allocated from year to year.

If your question is whether first nations received the annual funding we have budgeted, the answer is yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll stop you there.

I try to be generous with time, and if one goes over, I allow others. However, there are limits even to my patience.

You'll have an opportunity to ask further questions for three minutes.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Ms. Hogan for her words today. I think it really helps frame this discussion on what it really should be. I want to thank all of my colleagues here, particularly Jamie, for his opening comments. Thanks so much.

It's important that we understand that this is a report on a failure. There was the commitment by the government to end these long-term drinking water advisories by March 31, 2021. The government has failed to achieve that. That's a fact. Indigenous communities are left reeling from it.

Ms. Hogan, I really admire your work and your patience in this. I can understand your frustration and my frustration with the fact that there are still so many communities—generations of communities, as you said—that have suffered and will continue to go without clean drinking water. All we're left with is responses of, “We're just going to have to wait”. Wait and wait and more delay.

That's unfair for community members. That's not a good answer. That's unfair to people who are waiting right now. It's just not okay. These are real people, relatives of mine, who just don't have clean water.

Ms. Hogan is right. We're all going to leave this committee room and we're all going to enjoy a glass of water, not knowing where it came from or the kind of privilege it is. It's unfortunate that this is the reality we're living in because these communities don't get it. That frustrates me. I'm frustrated and upset that indigenous communities continue to always have to wait. If they were Montreal or Toronto, this would be done in a second. In any of our communities, this would be done overnight. We'd fix these issues. Because these are indigenous communities who have been sounding the alarm forever, we're still not acting fast enough.

This is an emergency. This isn't something that can wait. We can't hear about these continuous delays. What I want to achieve in this committee today is a firm commitment that we're actually going to do this. It's completely unfair.

My question is this: When can these remaining communities expect to get clean water? Some of them can't even afford to continue buying bottled water. When can they actually make sure that these systems are going to work for them? What is the date? It's clearly not March 31, 2021.

Ms. Fox.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I think I would say the following.

These are extremely difficult issues for all of us. As we work with communities and we see the impacts of what long-term drinking water advisories have done to communities and youth and trust, they are real. They are challenging and they are difficult. I want to absolutely recognize that.

It is an emergency situation. We do need to act in a way that responds to the emergency situation, which is why at times the department not only looks to long-term solutions but at short-term solutions. I know that is not the ideal solution, but at times, in order to respond to a crisis that is kind of....

Actions are happening every day. There is a commitment to get all 34 remaining long-term drinking advisories lifted. However, the commitment can't stop just there because there are communities right now that may not have a long-term drinking water advisory, but I would say they do not necessarily have a system that is appropriate long term. Some of their homes are not connected to a water system.

I was in Pikangikum last summer and saw first-hand how it impacts emergency management in this country.

I think it's important for us to stay focused on the actions required to lift the remaining advisories, while also staying focused on the long-term investment for the sustainability of the water solution, whether it's waste water or treatment plants.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm sorry, Ms. Fox. I have to interrupt. There's limited time.

The question was, when can these communities expect to have clean water? There was obviously thinking that went around the date of March 31, 2021. That's a commitment. This government has a tradition—not just this government but all governments—of committing to first nations and then just falling flat. That affects the relationship. When you speak of mistrust, that is the mistrust. The not answering of this question is the mistrust.

We need to know when the clean water can actually get to these communities. They want to know when. They don't want to know that we're all committed, because that's a fact. What we want to know is when they will actually have clean water. A portion of that, if you can add this, is perhaps related to the other existing deadlines. My colleague from the Bloc mentioned other existing missing deadlines.

There's a tradition of not being held accountable for when you should be doing these things. Ms. Hogan has been very clear about that. She's concerned, our Auditor General, that we're going to continue to say these things and you're going to continue to lie. When are we actually going to do this?

[Christiane Fox]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I think I would say that—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just one second....

Could you just retract that word, please, or just restate that question?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure. I can restate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We do need to adhere to parliamentary language in this committee room as well as the House.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure.

When we make a commitment to long-term drinking water by March 31, 2021, first nations, Métis and Inuit perceive that as a lie when we don't do it. When can we actually inform them of the truth of when they can expect clean water? That's what we're talking about here.

[Christiane Fox]

For the long-term drinking water advisories, Mr. Chair, that exist now, we have 45% of those that are anticipated to be lifted by the end of this calendar year, December 2022. We have some of them where no date has been set yet as a result of the ongoing work towards the long-term solution. We will continue to work through both the construction and the design and the testing.

I would say that 88% of those remaining are in either the construction or the final completion stage of the advisories that remain. Only a few are in that first kind of feasibility or design stage. It's 88%, but I cannot give you today a date on every single one because we're still working with the communities to determine the final lift date. I would also say that, at the end of the day, it is the community that decides on the lift, not the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I know this issue does hit communities and some individuals very closely, but I would ask that we maintain decorum in this committee, as we try to in the House as well.

Turning now to Mr. Duncan and beginning the second round, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

There are a lot of common themes over my time in the last couple of months on public accounts. With this item being a key priority of the Government of Canada, as alluded to in the reports and the government's response, it is very frustrating.

I'll never malign anybody's intent. I believe that everybody around the table here in committee and the department officials mean well and want to do well. Where I question the government's ability is in the management and leadership to actually effect the change to make the result happen.

As Mr. Schmale was alluding to in his opening as well, what we're seeing time and time again in public accounts is that spending money is not a result. Saying that we're investing x number of millions of dollars is not an actual result. What we're seeing through the Auditor General and what we're seeing through the PBO is that we're actually spending more money and getting fewer results and less value for money. It speaks to the system. I've given the government a lot of frustration. A repeated line that I've used is that they get an “A” for announcements and a “F” for follow-through on this.

I just want to give an example of the frustration, of the broken cycle or system we find ourselves in, in this report and on the follow-up of this. The report a year and a half ago talked about the inadequacy and the lack of a regulatory regime when it came to drinking water systems and the relationship the department has with first nations communities. It was determined through consultation that the Safe Drinking Water for First Nations Act was to be repealed by March 31, 2022. We're three months past the deadline.

Deputy Minister Fox, can you give me the bill number that's in Parliament right now to repeal this?

[Christiane Fox]

Mr. Chair, I don't have the bill number, but it's part of the budget implementation act.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

The replacement act of where it goes.... Because, again, there's going to have to be a specific piece of legislation for how it goes with the replacement. We're months behind on this. When it comes to the replacement being introduced by the end of the year, are you confident that we're going to be able to meet that date based on what I think we've been hearing as well, which is that there might be another deadline missed on this?

[Christiane Fox]

In terms of our intention to table before December 31, I think one of the elements that will help us achieve our target is the fact that we actually started the consultation process three years ago. We started it with the AFN, so the beginning of the work to draft the replacement legislation was begun through that exercise. I think that's important, because even if the time frame is short, the work we've done in the lead-up will allow us to table legislation that will be codeveloped and will address issues of rights, funding, source-water protection and other key issues from our partners.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Can you confirm that you expect the bill to be tabled by December 31 in Parliament?