Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2022

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would agree about why we are where we are. It's because of decades of underfunding and neglect, so now we find ourselves trying to address very concerning situations. I think you're also absolutely right that there is a push from all Canadians to see an urgency to this matter.

I think the government, through several budget cycles, has committed funding, and I think you are correct that it's a hard conversation to have with Canadians in the context of “why can't we do this right away and what more can we do?” What we've tried to do over the last few years is to work on what that “more” is. It's O and M, and it's funding, but the reality is that, if I were to say tomorrow, “Let's hire 700 more people to go to work and fix all of them”, the materials may not be there and the building season may be only three months, so it has to be spread over a couple of years.

There are a lot of realities on the ground that make these issues more challenging. It doesn't take away the urgency or the emergency to deal with them. In fact, at times, we have to put in place shorter-term measures to bridge that gap between those and the longer-term solution, and I think that's part of the challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

There are 12 water and waste-water hubs supporting 86 first nations in Ontario. I'm just wondering if you could elaborate on the hub model and whether it is working.

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, absolutely.

I think the hub model does work, because it provides an integrated set of expertise that can then support individual communities.

The investment into the hub, in addition to investments into communities directly, acts as a direct line of support. It acts as a direct line of training. It acts as a direct line of solutions and orientation and trying to bring people together over different issues that surface in water plants in multiple communities. There are times, especially in the northern Ontario context, where having that hub, that support system for the community that's more 24-7 than just relying on their own individual community members, can allow for a quick response and for access to contractors.

I think the hub model is just like an extra support system for chiefs and band councils, so that, when there's something off, they have somewhere to go to get that additional support that the community may need. For us, it also allows us to develop that capacity and that expertise to allow for better governance, for better training and for better results.

We feel that it's a good investment in capacity building and then chiefs feel supported by the hubs that operate and support their communities.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Are there any plans to expand that across Canada, since it's going so well in Ontario?

[Christiane Fox]

That's a great question, because when we look at our transformation exercises across the country, what works in one part of the country may not necessarily work in all parts of the country. Through regional pilots or models, you can get best practices. What we're seeing emerging out of the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority is this kind of hub and beyond, where it's really going to take control over water services for those communities that want to work through the authority.

The hubs are having an impact in terms of the ability to transform the service. Do we want to look at hubs across the country? Yes, but it's got to work for what's right in communities.

I was recently in Saskatchewan meeting with the Saskatoon Tribal Council and some of the communities. They feel that their tribal council is well equipped to support them, and as such maybe they would not necessarily want a hub model. We really try to work with partners to determine what's best for them.

I would say the hub has definitely led to a better support system and helps in our transformation of services.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, I have a question about trust among the communities, and what's being done here with these water advisories. What do you feel needs to be done?

[Karen Hogan]

It's a complex question that I think is linked to one of the issues of meaningful reconciliation. Other witnesses have appropriately testified that first nations criticized the way the original act in 2003 was put in place, that it lacked meaningful engagement and consultation. Recognizing the need for first nations' self-determination, the need to collaborate and meaningfully engage with them is essential.

I do believe we see it in other audits that we've looked at. There is mistrust at times between certain first nations communities and governments.

When you have repeated, long-term advisories, or even repeated short-term advisories, a community can lose confidence in its own water system and then turn to other solutions that are not better for their health. It is time for it to be actioned in a sustainable way with communities, so that trust can be rebuilt and re-established.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Fox, could you comment on the trust factor?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, absolutely. It's one of our biggest challenges when we talk about partnerships and decades of not being listened to in this process. It has to start with, first of all, action in terms of investment and support.

That's why the legislation being codeveloped is absolutely key. If legislation can recognize rights, funding and long-term commitments, then you move the discussion away from just one long-term drinking water advisory over another, to access to clean drinking water for long-term sustainable solutions across this country.

That's what Canadians are focused on. You can only achieve that through meaningful action, like legislation that has regulations around standards for water on reserves across the country.

Trust has to come with action and then with continued partnership that doesn't end when you lift. The partnership continues. For us, it continues well beyond water. It continues with education investments, health infrastructure and nursing stations. It's all about the relationship. If we don't commit to action, that relationship will not have solid ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I'm afraid that is all the time we have.

As I said, I was going to just survey the room to see if there's agreement that we end today's hearing and turn to the public accounts report, which we'll do in camera. Fortunately, all of the members are here, so that will be quick.

I'm your servant so I'm looking for unanimous consent on this—which I have. That's very good.

I thank the witnesses very much for attending here today, both in person and virtually. Thank you very much for being here, Ms. Fox, Mr. Barbosa, Ms. Hogan and Mr. Wheeler.

I will suspend the meeting until we clear the room and come back to discuss the draft report. The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]