Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2022

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Dong, you have two minutes remaining.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to Brenda for giving me that time, so that I get to ask my last question.

Deputy, we heard the Auditor General criticize the funding formula that hasn't been updated in forever. Do you have any institutional memory about when the funding formula was first started and how many years it has been since it was updated?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the Auditor General mentioned that it was a 30-year formula, so we did update it in July of 2021 as one of the actions in the recommendations. We tried to look at industry standards in order to change the formula. We looked at the asset cost, the different equipment that is part of the asset, the remoteness factor, as well as adjustments for inflation. We hope that these changes will bring that certainty and predictability of funding.

We also moved from 80% coverage of O and M to 100% coverage. Right now, I think we're at four times the level of funding that we were previously. Perhaps in the early years, the investment in the capital without matching that with the investment in the O and M may have had an impact on how the sustainability of the systems progressed. This is actually a really important initiative to go to 100% and change that formula.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Absolutely, operations and maintenance are very important for long-term sustainability.

You also talked about how we have invested $5.6 billion and also $1.5 billion in settlement and also restoration funding. Is all of this money part of the formula or is it additional?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Give a very brief answer, please.

[Nelson Barbosa, Acting Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Only a part of those resources are related to operations and maintenance. It is a blend of capital, construction, maintenance and capacity resources.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Can you submit to the committee a rundown of all this funding? That would be very helpful. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right, that's a request. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop you there.

Mr. Schmale, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Great. Thank you very much.

I'm going to pick up on the conversation that Eric and Blake were having. I recognize that a lot of these questions should be going to the minister, but unfortunately.... It's fortunate for us you're here, but unfortunate for you at the same time.

Let's continue the conversation regarding the PBO report, the Auditor General report and where we are now.

We have an extraordinary amount of money being spent. We have targets continually not met. I recognize that this has been over 150 years. I do recognize there have been a series of failures along the way. We have strategies and we have action plans, but no implementation. I think anyone in this room has a company in their riding that could make drinking water clean. I know I do.

What is going on?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would note that the strategies are yielding progress. We are seeing progress by 132 lifts and by the connections to systems that weren't there previously.

We do get a lot of suggestions from the department, like someone's company could go in and do all of the country for x number of dollars. However, I think it is important to recognize that first nations community leadership have to decide what systems work for them. They then have to rely on government, of course, for funding and supports, but I think it is about the solution coming from the first nations leadership in order to determine what type of wastewater system they would like for their community.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Is the department helping with those decisions, though?

[Christiane Fox]

We absolutely work in partnership.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Would the government have a preferred list of suppliers and contractors?

[Christiane Fox]

One thing we're talking to the AFN about is actually maybe a list, but not coming from government because it is a bit odd for us to say that they should use the following 10 people.

If you look at infrastructure at large, if we want to hire someone to do a home project, there's the Better Business Bureau or there's some sort of list that is a credible and reliable source. We're talking to first nations leadership about the production of that because bad actors and bad contractors are in place. I've seen it happen in communities.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Absolutely, I'm not saying that.

The government procures billions of dollars every single year. We have the PBO report that is talking about spending. We're spending more. The department and ISC—which is supposed to be temporary; that's in your departmental plan and I know you know this—is a temporary department, yet it's growing. We keep having report after report of these collapses in fixing an issue that, as has been pointed out at this committee, had it happened in any single community off reserve, would have been fixed by now.

There must be something in the department that is blocking this progress. I know indigenous communities want their own say. I do recognize that. It has to be from the bottom up, not the top down.

Where is this delay? Could we be using more collaboration, where possible, with non-indigenous communities that have a municipal water system that could be connected? There has to be a blockage somewhere because this would be fixed anywhere else.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't think the blockage is within the department. I think that people work in this department because they want to see change. Actually, there are a number of people committed to that. I think you're right that we are sort of no longer going to exist when we transform services, but I think the reason for the growth is that you can't actually transfer something that is not transferable in the context of sustainability. If we need to scale up a little bit to support the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority for a few years, transfer something that is transferable and then step away from it, I think that's perhaps why you're seeing a bit of growth in the department.

In terms of how we could do this better, of course, we have to modernize how we do infrastructure. Part of it perhaps has to be less about asset-by-asset management and more about communities having their infrastructure priorities and having funding that goes through, and then making decisions about what's best for their communities with perhaps fewer program-by-program conversations with us. Those can be a burden between us and other departments that do any type of infrastructure on reserve.

To the question about how we could do this better, I think there are modernization efforts regarding infrastructure that we're learning about and that we can do better. I think the capital investments are key, and I think the PBO noted that they are there.

I think it's about not just the hard infrastructure but also the investments into environmental public health officers and others, because they test water. I think it's about all of that, under a new legislative framework that could have regulations and standards around water protection and rights to clean water.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We turn now to Ms. Bradford.

You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

To the deputy minister, I think it's normal when you take on any challenge that you get the easy wins first so that you can have the greatest impact by tackling the more straightforward problems. Is there anything unique about the remaining 34 long-term drinking water advisories? Do these communities have any shared characteristics that have made the situations more challenging to resolve?

[Christiane Fox]

Mr. Chair, I think that's a very good question.

I would say that, indeed, you try to make progress as quickly as you can. I think that when a water treatment plant exists or is relatively new, further investment can just enhance the service.

I think some common factors among some of the communities include remoteness, a shortened construction season and sometimes the complexity of where we're building. I think we definitely try to do lessons learned as we work with one community, and maybe one solution can be shared. I think that's why these forums with tribal councils and the AFN can really bring people together.

However, yes, there are definitely common themes throughout those that are harder to lift. In fairness, I think some had a lot of mistrust of government since water settlement conversations were not occurring. They're now occurring. That allows us to make progress in some of those communities as well.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That's great.

With respect to the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte, as of March 15 of this year, a retroactive long-term DWA was issued for the public works garage. Could you explain what a “retroactive DWA” is?

[Christiane Fox]

Maybe I'll turn to Nelson.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Thank you for the question.

A retroactive long-term drinking water advisory is one for which an assessment is done after the fact and a determination is made that this water advisory has been in place for some time. It's the scheduling of the test and the determination of when that water issue began.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

It wasn't identified earlier, and when the actual testing happens, do you think, okay, this has probably existed for a couple of years or something? How would you determine when the failure had occurred?

[Nelson Barbosa]

It's like a measured determination. I would say the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte saw, I think, three to four lifts in the last four months, so this is the last remaining lift in place. I think it's determined not only by time but also sequencing with other water systems or other water-producing facilities in the community .