Evidence of meeting #26 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Romy Bowers  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Christiane Fox  Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Laurie Goldmann  Director of Operations, Privy Council Office

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Mr. Therrien, your time is up.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses again for being here.

My question will be for Ms. Gillis from Infrastructure Canada.

Oftentimes when we see some of these audits.... For example, we review them. In this case, it's the second time we're reviewing it. Something that I think is important to the mandate of this committee is to know and understand how seriously the Auditor General's reports are being taken and whether or not those recommendations are truly being implemented in a fashion that's appropriate to what we can expect from our institutions, particularly Infrastructure Canada.

Regarding the horizontal initiatives specifically, such as the investing in Canada plan, can you please describe an unsuccessful project and the lessons learned therein?

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you for the question.

When we look at the investing in Canada plan, we see there are 21 departments and 90 programs involved, so when you go down to the project level, that will vary depending on the department, the program and how it's managed.

I'll speak to Infrastructure Canada. It doesn't manage projects specifically. Those are managed by municipalities, non-profits and the provinces themselves. We are a cost-sharing funding partner, investing in those particular infrastructure projects.

There can be varied reasons why an infrastructure project does not advance as planned by the proponent. As Ms. Bowers said, it could be a supply chain reason, it could be a labour reason, or it could be a change of decision or prioritization by a particular government why a particular project does not advance as planned.

If that is the case, with Infrastructure Canada, should a municipality, for example, decide to cancel a project because it's not advancing it, if we have advanced any money, that would be reimbursed. We would then put the money back. If it was an integrated bilateral agreement with a particular jurisdiction, it would be available to fund another project.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

You have 30 seconds—hard.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

In some sense part of the issue is related just to the size. The pure scope of the project is massive, so I appreciate the difficulty of administering it, particularly with almost two dozen partners.

Would part of that problem be the siloing of these ministries or these departments in actually delivering the results of the action plan? Is there any recourse that you can take to fix some of the problems that you're noting?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you for the question.

We and the partner departments have worked quite diligently since the Auditor General's report to improve our protocols, data sharing and consistency of information, so it enables us to report more efficiently and more effectively.

I can give you a great example of that. We have a table—not the horizontal table—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I'm afraid, Ms. Gillis, I'm going to have to cut you off there. It's already over, but I appreciate it. If there's anything else you'd like to submit to the committee to follow up on that example, we'd be happy to receive it. I do need to end that there.

I'll turn now to Mr. Patzer. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm just going to start with Infrastructure Canada here. You claim that you have improved the reporting cycle, so with that improvement were you able to clarify and collect data that was previously missing from, say, 2016 to 2020?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you for the question.

I can follow up on the example that I was giving to answer this particular question.

We have improved the consistency and the way that we work within the 21 departments. We have a funding table that is available online. It was available online prior to the report as well. It provides a complete accounting for every dollar within that particular plan and showcases the budget for the $188 billion by program for the 90-plus programs: the commitments that are made, the number of projects that are approved, the number of projects that have started and the number of claims that have been reimbursed.

Prior to the Auditor General's report, because these are 90 different programs in 21 departments using different systems, it was taking us a couple of months to be able to consolidate and prepare and post that particular report. Through the work that we've been able to do, we can do that now in just a few weeks. That report is posted quarterly, and the next version will be up later this month.

There has never been any missing money, and in the Auditor General's report it does say there is a full accounting for the particular plan and the spending under the plan.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you.

Part of the justification for the massive programming was that it claimed that it would create 100,000 jobs per year. The last time you were here you couldn't confirm that this happened because of poor data. Now that you guys have improved your system, I'm just wondering, again, if the programming has created 100,000 jobs each year.

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you, Chair, for the question.

If we look at the table that I talked about regarding the flow of funds, you see that in this particular year that we're in, 2022-23, the planned spending is $18 billion. If we use StatsCan's seven jobs for every million dollars spent, that would create 120,000 jobs.

Yes, that is planned to support that this particular year. Actually, if we look at the StatsCan infrastructure hub, which we worked on with StatsCan to create, we see investments in public infrastructure, which are beyond just the plan—I want to make that known—of almost $90 billion, three-quarters of which is from the public sector, and since 2015 it's increased by 21%.

If we look at the about 550,000 jobs in infrastructure right now, we are supporting them because the private sector actually has been very flat in being able to increase their investments. Since 2015 they have only increased by 4%, where public sector investment has increased by 21%, and the investing in Canada plan has been an important contributor to that increase and support of jobs.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Over the last couple of years, though, based on the data.... You talked about 2022 and 2023, and you used some forecasting numbers to suggest 120,000 jobs, but looking back, was it 100,000 jobs per year?

June 16th, 2022 / 12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

If I look back to last year, as I mentioned, on the flow of funds table, we've reimbursed $20 billion—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

But how many jobs?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

—so that would be more than 120,000 jobs. Yes, if I look at last year, the numbers also support that job creation number.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you.

Now that time has passed and we've gone through COVID-19 and the whole thing, does the department have any statistics that they can share on the impact the slow rollout of certain funding programming had over the last couple of years? Were there delays, and things like that, that were faced?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Certainly, over time, there have been delays, as Ms. Bowers has mentioned, in supply chains, and we are in discussion with jurisdictions on what that means in certain cases. That's one of the reasons why the investing in Canada infrastructure program—not the plan but the $33-billion infrastructure program that I talked about—has been extended to 2033 to allow for some of the major infrastructure investments, like some of the major transit subways, to be able to complete within the program parameters. That—

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'm going to cut you off there because I have a short bit of time left.

I have two really quick questions, so I'd appreciate quick answers. What is the department's approval rate for those applying to the investing in Canada plan? Give a 10-second answer, please.

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

If it's the COVID stream, it's 20 working days. If it's not the COVID stream, it's 60 working days, but that's based on complete applications.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay. Thank you.

Last, how much money was given to people who did not actually qualify for funding?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

None.

I want to put a caveat to the last one, if there's a Treasury Board submission and it has to go to Treasury Board, it would take longer than the 60 days.

None, we do not fund ineligible projects.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Ms. Gillis. Those were excellent quick responses.

You did well, Mr. Patzer. When you said two questions, I was worried there.

Turning to our last member, Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you so much to our witnesses today. I must admit, at any committee, I don't think I've ever seen such an array of witnesses. We really appreciate your contributions today to the discussion.

Ms. Gillis, what progress, if any, has been made in measuring the progress of legacy programs in contributing towards the objectives of the detailed action plan?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

For those particular programs that they have advanced and are complete, they do not have any new applications that are coming through them, so those projects are advancing and concluding.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Are you tracking and measuring the progress that they are contributing to the plan?