Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll repeat the question: How long has this been on CRA's radar? How many years?

[Bob Hamilton]

I can't speak to how long it's been on the radar totally. It's been on the radar ever since I became the commissioner six years ago. I know it was on before that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Can I interrupt?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm going to ask ESDC the same question.

How long has it been on ESDC's radar?

[Lori MacDonald]

This is a constant source of work for us, because it's a population that's hard to reach, so each year, year over year, and certainly since 2016, we've been working on addressing this issue across the spectrum of vulnerable populations across the country.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The reason I ask this question is, if we've been aware of it for six years now, does the AG's recommendation set the way on how to address this? Or is this just going to be one small step in a long process to addressing this? And why is it taking so long?

I'll start with CRA, please.

[Bob Hamilton]

Sure. This one might need more than 15 seconds, but I won't take more than a minute and a half.

It's not new. It's an evolving challenge. It's one that we've spent a lot of time thinking about.

What I was going to say was that, if you read the Auditor General's report, one thing that I think we all agree on is that it is a challenging area to reach those who are hard to reach. There has been lots of work done, but there's more that's left to be done.

There are improvements that have to be made to overcome some of the challenges that we have in reaching these people and in amassing data to be able to measure our results. I think the Auditor General's report points to some things that are positive developments, but it will be a continuing journey.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you believe the Auditor General is correct when she says that we don't know if the outreach actually helped, and that perhaps the department has overstated how much their outreach worked? That's a pretty concerning comment if the government's overstating—

[Bob Hamilton]

Well, I think we—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—such a—

[Bob Hamilton]

Sorry.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, go ahead.

[Bob Hamilton]

I'll just carry on. If you want to hear from the other witnesses, let me know.

I think we always try to be clear with what we are measuring. As I think the Auditor General referenced, we measure take-up based on how many people have filed. Where we have difficulty measuring is those people who haven't filed. That's part of the work we're doing together with StatsCan, to see if we can overcome those—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. Thanks very much.

Just quickly to the AG, please, your comment is that the department “overstated” the results. Do you think your recommendations, as you've presented them, are clear enough for them to end overstating the results?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe the other witness was accurate, that it's about the take-up. We have an exhibit that tells you that there's been an increase in the child benefit take-up rate to 97%, but that doesn't talk about those individuals who have not filed a tax return. That's where you're overstating your take-up rate. It's 97% of those eligible who have filed. You need to be able to think about those who haven't, or who won't or can't.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Mr. Fragiskatos.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

Commissioner Hamilton, I want to begin with you. You spoke about community volunteer income tax programs, or CVITPs, as a key example of the challenge of how hard-to-reach populations are accessed, if I can put it that way. Could you expand on that?

Could you also give more information to the committee about something else you talked about, that being the recent enhancements to the program as announced by our Minister of National Revenue, Minister Lebouthillier, pertaining to populations in the north and indigenous individuals as well?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes. Thank you.

I would start by saying that the community volunteer income tax program is a very important one that we've worked on quite aggressively over the last number of years. At the core of it, it's really an effort by us to try to reach some of these people whom we might not normally be able to reach. How do you do that? How do you encourage them to file a tax return so that they can get the benefits they're eligible for? The laws of the land say that you can't get them unless you file.

This is our effort to get into the community, build the trust we can with some of the community members, and have some volunteers help people file their tax returns and get the benefits they need. It's something we've had for a while now. We've been trying to improve it over time. As I noted, during the pandemic we had to pivot a little bit to go more to a virtual format, because these were predominantly in person, and we couldn't do that at the beginning of the pandemic. We did pivot, and we have great support from the communities that we're engaged with.

What we did recently, and that was in the announcement, was provide some grants to these community associations to help defray some of the costs they have to incur when they're providing the support. It could be something like paper, computers, that sort of thing. As they're trying to help the members of their community in these hard-to-reach areas, we have a program that allows us to compensate them for some of those expenses.

Minister Lebouthillier announced recently some changes to that to make it more effective, provide greater assistance, and target better some communities across the land, including indigenous communities. It's a way for us to get into the communities and try to help the people within those communities, with the support of others.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I've seen the work of the CVITPs up close in a number of different parts of the country. I can tell you specifically about my home riding in London, where we have a number of CVITPs that have helped individuals gain access to things like the Canada child benefit. As you know, for families finally getting access to it, if they haven't filed for it for a number of years especially, it's transformational for them, and obviously for the kids.

Would you say, Commissioner, that the trust relationship—this is something I've noticed about CVITPs—is fundamental? These are usually locally based organizations that do a number of other things. They're not-for-profits or charities. They're known in their communities. There's a relationship of trust that exists toward citizens and vice versa. Would you say that is fundamental to CVITPs, and how potentially they can be a key actor in confronting this challenge of hard-to-reach populations?

[Bob Hamilton]

I think it's absolutely key. The trust that the people of the community and the hard-to-reach populations have in the government or in community organizations is really important.

In the CVITP, they help us to get that trust to allow us to help them. I think the trust, though, goes beyond the CVITP. It goes into every effort that we make to reach out to communities, be they indigenous or otherwise. Some people don't like to see the CRA coming, and we have to make sure that we go out of our way to say, “We are here to help you get access to the benefits that you're entitled to” and tell them how they can trust us.

Sometimes that trust takes some time to build, and community volunteers certainly help us in that regard.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I also wanted to ask you, Commissioner, a question beyond the CVITP. Specifically, as you know, the Minister of National Revenue has reaching out as part of her mandate letter. The Prime Minister has tasked not just her, but also the CRA, with reaching out and finding ways to engage newcomers and youth.

What is the CRA doing beyond the CVITP to engage with them?

[Bob Hamilton]

Again, it is a very active program for us to try to raise awareness of the tax system and the benefits that one can get through the tax system.

We have a three-pillar approach. We are looking at improving financial and tax literacy through educational efforts that we provide. We are raising that awareness I spoke about, so that people recognize that filing their taxes is an important key to enabling some of the benefits to come through. We're supporting the filing and helping people who might be challenged in filing their tax return. We can provide that support.

We just talked about the CVITP, but a lot of what we're doing is making it easier for people to access the tax system. That can be through things such as videos that we prepare. Sometimes they're in different languages to help newcomers. You mentioned newcomers coming to the country. How can they get a familiarity with the tax system? We have educational materials and, in some cases, we're able to translate them into languages that are easier for them to access.

Those are some of the things we're doing in that area to try to increase awareness and help people by making it simpler for them to file their taxes and understand the tax system.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.