Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Louise Hayes
Philip Rosen  Committee Researcher

9:15 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Louise Hayes

That's accurate. There are seven members. They're parliamentarians from Tanzania. They will be here on Thursday. The reason they were interested in our committee is because there are a couple of members of that delegation who are parliamentarians on their equivalent committee in their country, and they said they would like to observe the committee doing its work and then possibly meet with you afterwards. So it's up to the committee if it wishes to meet with them or for how long it would like to do that.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, then we would need to have an order of business that day in order for them to observe us.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Exactly. So we'd have to come up with something, but I don't think we want to do it just to have something to do to entertain them. I think we should have some legitimate business we're dealing with.

So what do we feel is--

October 3rd, 2006 / 9:15 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Could we start with Bill C-12 that quickly?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Yes.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Chair, I think we could start with Bill C-12. I don't know that it's going to take up a terribly long period of time. It is the bill that was here last time. I think, by and large, we fixed whatever the issues were. So I think it would be appropriate that we deal with that, and if you have your guests here, they could see the committee--

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Yes, they can observe how we deal with it.

If we agree that we can start with Bill C-12, how do you want to start?

Mr. Comartin.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I would certainly agree that we do that. I think it actually might be helpful or educational for them if we have the officials here to do the overview, and I would think they would be available even on that short of notice.

They could see that, we could ask some questions, and they would get a sense of how the committee functions. So I would support that.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Mr. MacKenzie, do you know whether the officials or the minister could be available?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

I don't know, but I can find out. If we didn't do that, would you want to do the estimates?

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I just don't know if it's going to be possible to get the minister here on that short of notice.

I would suggest, Mr. Chair, if we can't do that, that we go to Mr. Holland's point on the border guards.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

The minister has already been here on the estimates, so maybe we could have just the officials. I would suspect they can come on two days' notice; I'm sure they would. Maybe we'll continue with the meeting here while Mr. MacKenzie checks whether it's possible.

Mr. Holland.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, I know we've set a number of items forward, and we were talking about the one meeting. But perhaps to finish the process what we need to do is try in some sense to define the scope of our undertaking with respect to Maher Arar.

What I'm hearing you say—and I don't have a problem with it—is that you would like to move in two parts. One would be looking at the leaks, with a view to the past and answering some of the questions of how they occurred. I don't have a problem with that. The second part would be dealing with going forward, as the second part of Justice O'Connor's report comes out. I don't have a problem with that.

Dealing specifically with the scope of how leaks occurred and how we're going to find this out, I make two suggestions. One, I think most of the suggested deputants make sense, and we would concur. I would also add the head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Review Committee.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I think that Mr. MacKenzie suggested that.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I'm sorry.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

No, SIRC is different from CSIS.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Yes, I'm sorry. I was talking, so I didn't know if you had already mentioned it. Okay, the head of SIRC.

The other recommendation would be the deputy minister for public safety and national security. The reason there and the reason why I was bringing the deputy minister up before is that I know the RCMP is conducting its own review into how these leaks occurred, but obviously the ministry that's responsible has the responsibility to get to the bottom of how these leaks occurred. So what actions are being taken by the department to investigate these leaks and try to get to the bottom as well?

Are you suggesting the RCMP public complaints commissioner as well?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

I think so. The RCMP public complaints commissioner.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Mr. Rosen informs me that on November 1.... Is it SIRC that comes out with a report?

9:20 a.m.

Philip Rosen Committee Researcher

Yes, Mr. Chair.

We've already agreed to hear from SIRC on their annual report on November 1. I'm pretty sure they would be able to answer questions about what they did in relation to the Arar situation.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

If I remember, that date is not flexible. Is that right?

9:20 a.m.

Committee Researcher

Philip Rosen

That's right. I've given this explanation a number of times; I'm trying to remember where I've given it.

These are part-timers working for the Security Intelligence Review Committee. They are privy councillors, and they meet as a group three or four times a year in Ottawa. When they're here, their time is tightly scheduled.

After lengthy discussions between your clerk, Louise, and the people at SIRC, we agreed on November 1, which is a Wednesday. Conceiveably, you could ask them questions about the Arar commission inquiry and what they've done.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay.

Mr. Hawn.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Fundamentally, I don't dispute talking with these folks. My only concern is, are we redoing the O'Connor commission? Are we going to find out anything more than Justice O'Connor has already reported on?

I'm not sure what value that would have, if all we're doing is rehashing what O'Connor has already done.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Yes, Mr. Holland.