Public Safety Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does anybody else have any suggestions for us?

Ms. Brown.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I don't know what we're going to do about the lack of meeting time for all these things we'd like to study. I agree with our top two priorities, but I think a number of factors are converging around this incident at the Vancouver airport. They include two government agencies that this minister--who we try to help--and this committee are responsible for, and they are the RCMP and the Border Services Agency. Those are the two major federal presences that were there at the time of that incident. If we're not responsible for them, I don't know what we are responsible for.

Secondly, because this is called the public safety committee, it raises the whole issue of the appropriate use of force on our own citizens or on visitors to our country.

I don't think some of the other issues are being raised in the international press and affecting Canada's international reputation. That's why we need to demonstrate that we are concerned about this and want to get some answers, as the committee of public safety. We know that international repercussions are happening, and looking to the future with the Olympics and people coming here, we have to get what went on at that airport straightened out.

It isn't completely our responsibility, but the minister is going to need views on that, other than the view of the agency investigating itself and the RCMP investigating itself. So our view might be very helpful to him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I wonder if the committee is prepared to sit additional meetings through the week if that's what we need to do. If all of these things are priorities, I don't think we have sufficient time in two meetings a week to do them. I wouldn't argue with anybody that some of these are priorities that should be addressed.

I wonder about tobacco and whether that could be dealt with by the health committee. If the issue is the increase in smoking, maybe it's a matter for the health committee and not us. I understand what you're saying about the crossover with the contraband.

I think we've expressed a desire to finish the one study we spent time on and move ahead on Bill C-3. If we can do those things and it means taking additional time, if staff and space are available, so be it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Or we could strike a subcommittee.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Somebody will still have to sit additional time, including the chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That's true, but it depends on who the chair of the subcommittee is.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I agree with Ms. Brown that the issue is a substantive one and needs to be looked at. At the same time, there are five separate investigations into it. We may very well want to speak to the same people they're speaking to.

I'm not averse to that; as a matter of fact, I think it would be very helpful to get other police departments' training and use-of-force manuals, and evidence of that sort at this committee. But at the same time we have to realize that there are five different jurisdictions and different parts of both the government and other governments looking into it.

It's not as though we're leaving this unattacked in the public and government realm, but I agree there is no better place to do something about it than at this committee. It's important to get on the record that there are five other separate investigations--two associated with the government and three other non-government ones, not the least of which is a coroner's inquest. The Government of British Columbia is doing a study, and I believe other governments in Canada have also studied it.

I guess I'm trying to say it isn't as though no one else is doing something about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I would like to maybe interject another point.

If we do it, I think we should do it well. To simply say that we have done it...you have to realize that if we're going to do it and we're going to do it well, it's going to involve a huge commitment of time on the part of the people of this committee, above and beyond the commitments you have right now.

Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I agree with Mr. Norlock that there are five other investigations. This is not to criticize anyone, but all those five investigations—four, at least—aren't going to be absolutely independent or open, transparent.

One is the integrated homicide task force investigation that's led by the RCMP. Then there's the RCMP investigation. Then there's, of course, the coroner's inquest that depends on the evidence gleaned by the RCMP. And then you have the public complaints commissioner, who also depends partially on the evidence gleaned by the RCMP.

That's not to criticize the RCMP. I have the utmost respect for them.

Then you have the CBSA internal recommendations coming to the minister, and you have the minister having ordered, he says, the RCMP to review their own regulations or protocols regarding tasers.

I must commend the province in terms of coming to the table with a broad inquiry, but all of us know the province actually doesn't have the constitutional jurisdiction to hold that inquiry, either on the airport authority, or on the RCMP, or on the CBSA, or on the immigration department.

I understand that the RCMP would cooperate with them, as would all the other federal agencies, but that simply points out the fact that we, federally, are not really living up to our obligations. We have jurisdiction over all of the elements that come together at that airport, and we are not conducting an open, transparent, comprehensive review, call it whatever you may.

Not to criticize anyone, but you agree that this is a tragedy that has touched the lives of all Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and it has affected our international standing. So I was actually bringing it here in that spirit, not to criticize anyone but because I think we need to show, if the minister won't show that he is prepared to deal with that in a public, comprehensive, open kind of way, that he's responsible for at least two of the major agencies and the government is responsible for all four. That was the impetus that actually made me bring this motion forward here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does anybody have a concrete proposal, then, of what we do on what days and what our priorities would be?

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

With the consent of the committee, we've just checked and we think the minister could be here on Tuesday to begin—

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

On Bill C-3?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Yes, on Bill C-3.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So he would lead it off. Okay.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I don't know what that does for Thursday. It is kind of short notice.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I think we should try.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

But the other thing I would say is that we are trying to determine whether or not the ministry officials could be available for Thursday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So that's November 22, for departmental officials. Usually they appear after the minister, but that's up to you.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If we can get it done, let's do it.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

It's just that I think there's a problem with time on Bill C-3.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

And not on other things?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Not on other things.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Since he's here, he might as well. Why not? We're free to ask questions.

I can read your notes on Bill C-3. There's not much he can tell me that I can't learn.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

But maybe there are some things you could be taught.