Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registered.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathalie Villeneuve  President, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Louise Riendeau  Coordinator, Political Issues, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Nathalie Provost  Member, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique
Heidi Rathjen  Representative, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique
Mitch McCormick  As an Individual
Jack Tinsley  As an Individual
Dave Shipman  As an Individual

5:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

I think one of the absolute biggest problems in this country is repeat offenders, repeat criminals, getting out of jail because they got two for one on their sentences. Now they let first-time drug dealers out of the last one-third of their sentences. There is double time in custody if you spend it in the remand centre instead of in a federal penitentiary. They get out on recognizance, which they promptly ignore. Recognizance is a piece of paper. It means nothing to someone who's intent on causing bodily harm. They could care less about a piece of paper.

I think it's time, as a country, that we got tough on criminals, really tough on repeat criminals, and really tough on violent repeat criminals. They will not reoffend if they are kept in jail. It's a joke for people to take a human life and be out on the street in four and a half years. It's a joke. It flies in the face of everything this country stands for.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Dave Shipman

I would add that a tenth of the time, when an incarcerated inmate went on a shooting spree.... If we keep these guys in jail, they're not able to hurt the citizens, the women, of our country. The only real monsters in this world are those that pass for human. Monsters, like the one who attacked the Polytechnique...those sorts of people should be in jail.

5:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

One final comment, if I may.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

The time is just about up. We can come back to you. Maybe somebody else can direct it.

Mr. Kania, please.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Ms. Rathjen, did you want to respond to that? Go ahead.

5:15 p.m.

Representative, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique

Heidi Rathjen

First of all, tougher sentences will not work for most domestic violence...especially those that end in suicide. Kimveer Gill, Marc Lépine, intent on committing suicide...tougher sentences would have no impact on them. That's why prevention is most important.

Regarding the nine million guns that are still not registered, I have no idea what the source of that is. I've been told it's Gary Mauser, a Simon Fraser University criminologist who's a long-time anti-gun control advocate. At the time, before the laws were passed, the Government of Canada estimated that the number of gunowners was two million or so and the number of guns in Canada was seven million or so. Right now we have close to two million gunowners registered and seven million guns, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Finally, I'm wondering, if those nine million guns are not registered, are the owners licensed? If they're not licensed, then is there a problem with the licensing system or are these gunowners who don't respect the law? Or do they have licences and they are not registering their guns? To me, this is a little absurd. Where does this number come from?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay. Thank you.

This question is for the three retired police officers.

I'll tell you how I believe the registry system does help, and I'm going to give you examples and I'm going to ask you to agree with me.

First, it helps to enforce court orders, because if you have an order from a judge to go into a house and confiscate all weapons, and you know there are 13 registered in that house, that will help you enforce the court order to remove all the weapons, because some could be hidden and you wouldn't know.

I want to go through the list first.

Second, if you have a domestic violence call and you go to a house and you know there's a risk that somebody could cause harm to another person, and you also know, through the registration system, that there are, once again, 13 guns in that house, you can look for them. If you don't know, you will have no idea if some are hidden or just not accounted for.

Third, people who are at risk of suicide are unstable. The same thing applies: if you know that circumstance, and there's a court order or there's an order from a doctor to do something about it, in terms of committing somebody, and you know there are 13 guns in that house, you can go into the house and look for the 13 guns.

Fourth, registration facilitates proof of possession of stolen and smuggled firearms because if the arms have a registration and they're in illegal hands, you will know who is authorized to have those and you'll be able to do something about that.

Accountability. If I'm a gunowner and I have 13 guns registered to me, some gunowners, at least, will be more responsible if they know those particular guns are registered to them in their name. They may not loan them out, they may not sell them, and they may not refuse to keep them locked up properly if they're responsible and they know there will be consequences if they don't follow the law.

Police investigations. If you go to a crime scene and there's a gun there, and it's registered and you can link it to somebody, that will aid you in your investigation, rather than if there's nothing at all. And if there is nothing at all, in terms of the system, and you have to find that gun, you're going to spend police resources and money trying to locate the source of that gun.

So for all those reasons, I believe you must agree with me that the registration system, although not perfect, and I'm not saying it's perfect, must at least make our streets a little bit safer. I can't believe all three of you would say we're not at least a little bit safer based on all those examples.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Can I get the permission of the committee to have them answer? I think they're important questions, and we're almost out of time?

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay. Go ahead and answer it.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

Would you repeat your first point, please?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

The enforcement of court orders.... If a judge says, “Go and confiscate all weapons in that house”, and you know there are at least 13 that are registered, and you're looking for 13, it's not perfect, but at least you know what you're looking for.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

Prior to this legislation coming into effect...under the Criminal Code police may seize any weapon, not just a firearm, at any time if they even suspect an offence is taking place or has taken place. They can enter any place to search for a firearm. They can enter any place without a warrant to prevent harm if, for instance, the person is being assaulted.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

But that wasn't the point. The point was court orders. If a judge says, “Go and take all guns out of that house”, and you know there are at least 13 registered in that house, you have to agree with me that it's helpful to have those 13 registered to enforce the court order.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

If there's one gun in there and the order said one gun and we found one gun, don't believe for a second we would stop searching, as police officers. We will turn that place upside down and satisfy ourselves that there are no further guns in there, sir--

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

And you'll continue to--

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

Just because the registry says there are 13 guns doesn't make it so.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Right. You are exactly right. If you turn it upside down and you find 12, but you know that 13 are registered, you are going to keep searching, aren't you?

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

Certainly.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

So that helps, then, doesn't it? You must admit that helps.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

It doesn't hurt you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's something. Thank you for that.

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Jack Tinsley

You're welcome.