Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registered.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
As an Individual
To address the part of your question that I believe I understood, Ma'am, these very brave ladies to my right provided some statistical information that included the years 1991 to 2001. The FAC system, which was the previous system for screening potential gun owners, was in place until it was replaced by legislation associated with this long-gun registry and replaced with the current firearms licence, possession, and acquisition licence.
Statistically, I believe the numbers are sort of melded together. However, currently I'm aware of 1.7 million registered gun owners in Canada. The current system recently had 500 refusals--that's people who applied for firearms and were refused a licence--and 1,500 revocations. I believe most of those resulted from spousal incidents.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
I'll send you a copy of my question and you can answer it in writing. That's fine.
5 p.m.
A voice
Go ahead and finish, Mr. Tinsley.
5 p.m.
As an Individual
In a lot of those revocations the firearms licences were revoked for non-criminal matters--there were alcoholism or mental problems or things like that. So I'm not really sure there is a significant number of firearms licence revocations that take place as a result of information made for a successful criminal investigation. I don't think that happened.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
First of all, thank you for appearing before the Committee today. I know this is difficult for you, but it is also difficult for us to hear how much this is affecting you even now, some 20 years later.
I would just like to clarify a couple of things that were mentioned today. We have heard a lot of statistics. But those statistics are not complete, obviously.
We talked about the numbers of murdered women. That fact is that long guns are not the weapons most often used to kill women—knives are, as Mr. McCormick experienced. Thirty per cent of murders of women are committed with knives. Only 9% of murders of women are committed using firearms. So, I just wanted to clarify those numbers because, once again, they are not complete.
The reason I say that is because we presently have more than 580 aboriginal missing or murdered women. They are not counted. The majority are missing. They are not counted anywhere in these statistics. There are many, many more who are not aboriginal who are also missing.
If tomorrow we found all of these missing women, and they'd all been discovered to have been shot by a long gun, would you still say that the long-gun registry is working? The stats you're referring to would be through the roof and you could no longer use them as evidence.
I make that suggestion because statistics are incomplete and we cannot rely on them. What we can rely on is whether or not the long-gun registry, when it was put into place, did what they said it was going to do. Did it prevent further murders, further violence with guns, further gun crime? And that is irrefutably no, it did not do what it said it was going to do.
I have a question for Ms. Rathjen.
Can you tell me the difference between an acquisition license and a firearm registration?
5 p.m.
Representative, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique
Yes, certainly.
First of all, a possession certificate is used to authorize—or otherwise—an individual to own a firearm. That person is subject to a screening process which allows police or the government to determine that the applicant can own a firearm. It is a process that controls gun owners, as opposed to guns.
So, if there is only a possession certificate, as was the case previously with the firearms acquisition certificate… There is a screening process; we know who owns guns. But if guns are not required to be registered, we don't know what guns are involved or how many.
If there is no registration--
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Pardon me for interrupting, but I only have a few minutes.
At the present time, as Mr. Shipman was saying, there are almost 9 million legal guns—because illegal firearms are not included—which are not counted.
Do you believe that registering Marc Lépine's gun would have prevented the murder of these young women?
5:05 p.m.
Member, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique
Registration alone would probably not have prevented it completely. However, it may be the reason why, unlike what happened with Marc Lépine, far fewer people were harmed by Kimveer Gill, because the police were able to respond very quickly.
When we talk about prevention, we are not talking about eradication. We are logical enough to understand that the gun control system is a method of prevention. So, it is difficult to develop figures for things that never happened. However, the numbers we have at this time show that there has been an improvement in people's quality of life—there are fewer murders and there is less domestic violence. The figures are clear. You obviously cannot count incidents that never happened.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Yes, I understand. With all due respect, however, as I demonstrated, these statistics are not complete. You cannot rely on statistics.
How do you explain the events that occurred at Dawson College? We heard police officers say that the system that was in place previously was better. If we had kept the same system as before, it is possible that more murders could have been prevented. That is how I feel.
My time is up now. Thank you once again for being here.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since time is limited, I will go through my points quickly.
First of all, the three police officers made an important statement, which was that they never used the infamous Canadian Firearms Registry. That is what you said, and I cannot understand how someone who has never used it could pass judgment on the registry's usefulness. Up until now, more than 150 other police groups have used it. Seven thousand licenses have been revoked. That is a significant number. Of course, I understand that you may not be aware of that, since you have never used it.
Furthermore, when it comes to myths, you mentioned several that we are also hearing from the Conservatives. I would like you to answer this, because it is important. Myth number one is that the registry is costly and that's why we have to get rid of it. Myth number two is that the registry is useless; police officers have said that and say never use it. The third myth is that firearms registration is a long and costly process. The fourth myth is that crimes are not committed with hunting guns but, rather, with handguns. I am sure that you ladies will want to respond to that. The fifth myth is that what we should be most worried about are not legal weapons, but smuggled weapons.
There is no doubt that smuggled weapons are in circulation, but if we are able to register all the legal firearms, we will already have made significant progress.
This morning, the newspaper quoted a Conservative member of Parliament as saying that there is no connection between the registry and what happened at Polytechnique. That is another myth. They seem to be saying that serious incidents have occurred, but that they really have no connection whatsoever with the Canadian Firearms Registry.
Ladies, I would like you to address those myths, so that some people may learn something.
5:05 p.m.
Representative, Group of Students and Graduates of Polytechnique
First of all, as regards firearms used to commit crimes, I was not here last Tuesday, but I understand that Superintendent Cheliak from the RCMP clearly stated that 40% of the guns confiscated by police, following criminal or potentially criminal incidents, are registered long guns. In my opinion, that says it all.
To answer the previous question about the killings at Polytechnique, Concordia and Dawson, it's important to point out that gun control does not only happen through the registry. The registry is one component that is part of a whole package of measures, such as screening, possession certificates, safe handling, and so on. As for the tragedy at Polytechnique, specific registration may not have prevented the killings. However, the only way was to visit gun store after gun store, until the police found the one where the weapon with the identified serial number was sold to Marc Lépine. It's the same thing for the Dawson College incident. In fact, the registry helped police respond more effectively while the drama was unfolding. Police officers were able to recover the killer's car. Witnesses had seen him taking his guns out. The officers verified the licence plate number in CPIC and found an address for the vehicle owner corresponding to that of Kimveer Gill. They knew that he owned three or four guns and they were able to access his photograph while events were unfolding. For police officers, having a picture of the killer in the midst of the chaos, as events are unfolding, is extremely helpful. That was possible thanks to the registry, and that is only one example.
5:10 p.m.
Coordinator, Political Issues, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
As regards the costs, we know that the registry is used 11,000 times a day. In Quebec, as soon as a call comes in for an incident involving domestic violence, call centre dispatchers check the registry to provide any available information to officers. That allows them to modulate their response. Also, since 1995, under the Quebec domestic violence policy, police officers are asked to seize guns and, where a danger exists, to do so immediately, without having a warrant. That provides them with very useful information.
So, if we want police officers to be able to do their job, we have to give them the proper tools. The role of our organization is to protect women, but we cannot do that alone, and police officers cannot do it without the proper tools. We see this as an effective and useful investment.
Through the work we do, we see what happens every time there is a domestic homicide. It is very rare, at least in Quebec, for domestic homicides to be committed with handguns. The firearms used are always rifles and long guns. For that reason, we think it is very important to be able to trace those guns, most of which are not owned by people with a criminal past. If we stop registering guns, we will make it easier to smuggle them. They will be able to circulate freely.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today. As previously stated, it's a brave act to come and relive some of the issues you've gone through in the past, those from l'École Polytechnique and obviously some of the police officers.
My question is actually not a question. I'm going to request that Mr. Tinsley finish the statement he was going to complete at the beginning of his evidence. It's only about a page and a half. I think some of the information is very important. Then I have a question.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
It ended where you were saying that you were a former licensed Manitoba big game hunting guide.
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, I was a former licensed Manitoba big game hunting guide, an appointed member of the Ashern, Manitoba past shooters hall of fame, a past shooter at the Lundar Manitoba all-Canada goose hunt, a former member of the pistol club, and a former Manitoba hunter safety assistant instructor. This is my 46th consecutive year of holding Manitoba hunting licences.
I have seen from many perspectives how the Canadian long-gun registry affects the many groups of individuals I've been associated with in my life. To a person, from the subsistence hunter native friends I have in the north, with whom I've hunted caribou, to the big city professionals I've shot skeet with, none support this registry, and none claim to have benefited from it in any way.
I want to make a couple of final points that have always weighed fairly heavily in all my considerations of gun law. Registration is merely a step towards total abolition of private gun ownership. It was penned in 1918 by the British Home Office in a paper called “Committee on the Control of Firearms”. So it's not new. Most countries overseas that instituted these laws did so to prevent civil uprisings, such as that which occurred in Russia. I believe that we are in no danger of that happening in Canada today.
After the British public was effectively disarmed by these laws, and the Germans were set to invade and overrun them, the British public found itself virtually defenceless. A plea was made to the United States, which then generously and without hesitation donated tens of thousands of family heirlooms, sporting guns, and ammunition to the British people with which to arm themselves and their Home Guard.
Despite anything anyone says about the detriments of private gun ownership, those are the facts.
We are a free nation. Too many people have made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure that we are free today so that we can own a firearm if we choose to, can say what we believe, and can worship where we choose and not fear our government. I ask that each of you follow your own conscience and act on this matter in the best interests of Canadians everywhere.
Thank you.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much.
I have a quick question. I hope it's quick. It refers to the cost. I'm just going to say that it costs somewhere upwards of $2 billion to register the current seven million firearms. Would it be accurate to say that to register eight million more firearms, those not currently registered that are out there, it might logically cost an equivalent or near equivalent amount? Second, where do you feel that money would best be spent vis-à-vis public safety and what I like to call crime fighting?
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I understand. Again, we're dealing with numbers. When the gun registry was instituted, there were start-up costs. There were errors made and things had to be corrected. I believe, in all honesty, that it costs a lot more than it should, and it certainly costs a lot more than was ever projected for the cost. Those numbers are accurate, as far as I know, and we still have 10 million firearms out there. If we're going to register them, I would submit that it's going to cost at least half that much, if not an equivalent amount.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
If there's any money left over, where do you feel that money ought to be spent vis-à-vis public safety?
