Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
--do some costing with respect to your $106 million, or did you just rely on the media?
5:05 p.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Thank you for your question.
The cost analysis we undertook involved the $8.4 million published by the RCMP. It's important to reiterate that the Auditor General reportedly notes that the cost is importantly underreported—inaccurately reported, in fact. It flouts the important parliamentary obligations of elected officials, like yourselves, who normally have great due diligence and responsibility and care to oversee the spending of government, and, I would have thought, normally would be upset to find out that members of the bureaucracy would purposely, in violation of the dictates of the Auditor General, flout—
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
[Inaudible--Editor]...Mrs. Glover has some questions.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
I'm going to ask some quick questions. Thank you to all our witnesses for being here.
I too want to focus on a couple of things that Ms. Cukier has said.
I'm going to ask you some questions. Perhaps you could just give me a yes or no answer to the first question, because I have a number of questions.
Have you or the Coalition for Gun Control ever received any grants or contributions, any money at all, from the previous Liberal government to promote your views on this issue?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Well, in fact did you not receive in 2002 a three-year contract for $380,000 to develop strategies for the implementation of the firearms law?
5:05 p.m.
President, Coalition for Gun Control
Absolutely. It was from the Quebec government via the National Crime Prevention Council. It was a competitive bid, and the program was very specifically focused on implementation of the law--nothing to do with advocacy, which I think you implied in your question.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
I'm not implying anything specific other than we are aware that you do have some motivation for being involved in this issue, including: have you donated to the Liberal Party?
5:05 p.m.
President, Coalition for Gun Control
Yes. And I've donated to the NDP Party--
5:05 p.m.
President, Coalition for Gun Control
--and I've donated to the Bloc Québécois Party.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Senator, as you indicated, the registry has not had an impact on crime prevention. I am a police officer and I agree, but I would like to know whether, as the founder of the Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared, you feel that the registry is an effective means of saving lives.
5:05 p.m.
Senator, CPC, Senate
Currently, the number of homicides committed using a gun is decreasing, but it is as though over the last decade we had seen an increase in this type of crime and found it necessary to act. That is the impression we are under, but it is quite the opposite. Since 1979, the crime and homicide rate involving the use of guns has been in free fall. The registry came into effect in 1992. With or without the registry, crime and homicide rates will continue to decline. This is obvious, and it is for all kinds of reasons.
Yes, urbanization is of critical importance in terms of the use of firearms. When I was at the Ministère du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la Pêche du Québec [Quebec Ministry of Leasure, Hunting and Fishing], the number of hunting permits was constantly decreasing. That has been the case for 20 years, to the point that we are wondering whether there will be a new generation of hunters. There are all kinds of factors to be considered. The fact that couples are separating is one. Hunting is no longer passed along as a cultural value from father to son. In many cases, when a couple separates, it is the mother who raises the children. Hunting, however, is not really a part of women's values. There is therefore a natural phenomenon of decline as far as crimes are concerned. Whether or not there is a registry, it cannot be scientifically proven that this will have an impact on crime.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Oh, do I? Very good.
I want to correct a couple of things that were discussed so far. We discovered very clearly recently when the CPA president was here that in fact, as Sergeant Rutledge said, he had not canvassed his members. He commented that nine regional members made the decision to support the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois, and the NDP in their position.
I can tell you that when I was policing and when this first came about, we canvassed every member, and back then there were 60,000 members; now there are only 41,000 members of the CPA. And at that time, overwhelmingly, police officers said they believed it was ineffective and it was not going to help them fight gun crime.
Why did the CPA not include that question when they did the 2010 survey asking many important questions about policing issues? It's interesting they would not ask that question, and yet the CPA president came here and referred to a survey done with all 75,000 police officers across this country about whether to use the firearms registry, and only 408 replied that they did; 408, which is less than 1% of the 41,000 CPA members, and far less when you look at the 75,000 who were serving.
It's interesting to me as a police officer, and to many police officers sitting here who have appeared, that we were never asked the question when years ago we stood up and said we disagreed overwhelmingly that it would stop gun violence.
Mr. Rutledge, why do you think no survey was done?
5:10 p.m.
Sergeant, As an Individual
I think quite possibly most on-the-street members realize that people are the problem. We will not control what people do. Our initial reaction would be that registering guns will not stop crime, will not make people safe, and will not assist us. We still go to as many houses now not knowing if there are guns in the house or if there aren't. You have to go for the worst and hope for the best, still this day, and that's still our approach.
So it hasn't helped us. It still doesn't make us safe.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
As we've said, it's far more than the $4 million that we keep referring to. It's probably far more than $8 million.
Mr. Mauser, you'll probably get a chance to answer that.
If there were more money for policing, don't you think that would be a better investment?
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
We'll have to get back to that on the next round.
Ms. Jennings, please.
5:10 p.m.
Sergeant, As an Individual
I would say much more effective would be enhancing our DNA ability in this country. If you want to put bad guys in jail, do that. Spend the money on DNA.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses. I appreciate your presence here today, as I know my colleagues in the Liberal Party of Canada do as well.
Ms. Cukier, you were asked about the cost savings of abolishing the firearms registry. It's my understanding that the Auditor General actually addressed the cost of the registry and the cost of registration versus the cost of licensing, and therefore the cost of registration.....
And this is according to the Auditor General, not some speculation. I believe Canadians trust her implicitly, which is why members of Parliament are coming under a great deal of pressure with regard to her auditing our expenses. I invite people to go on my website to see my expenses.