Public Safety Committee on May 26th, 2010

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I have a point of order.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I apologize. It's my error, being a rookie in the chair. Forgive me.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

You're doing a fine job.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I was so proud that I pronounced his name right that I forgot about my side having the next round. I apologize for that to the committee.

Mrs. Glover, you have five minutes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much.

I also want to thank the committee members for being here today.

I have a couple of questions.

I have to say that I'm somewhat disappointed you weren't able to finish, Mr. Grismer. It was an important question about handguns and the registration of handguns versus the registration of long guns. I would like you to finish. There is a significant difference.

I spent a lot of time policing, as did many of our members on the Conservative side. There are no police officers in any other party here in the House of Commons. There are a number of a police officers who are elected officials and who very strongly agree with the bill put forward by Candice Hoeppner.

I want to give you a chance to answer that question, because it's important.

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

The registration of handguns and prohibited firearms, when it was under the regime of national weapons—I can't remember what it was called—was conducted by the national restricted weapons registry system. Everything was verified there.

A person would go out and buy a firearm and would then return to the police station with a permit that allowed the transport of the firearm to the police station. Every single aspect of the firearm would be verified by the officer behind the counter.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

It was before you received the handgun.

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

It was before you were allowed to take the handgun home.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

It's a significant difference that I think is very important to highlight when we talk about the registry itself and why the handgun registry is more reliable than the long-gun registry. It was a voluntary system to collect information from a wide array of Canadians across the country.

You referred to a poll. I'm very glad to hear that you polled your members.

When I was policing, we were polled when the long-gun registry was brought forward by the previous government. Front-line officers overwhelmingly said they did not want the long-gun registry and they did not think it would be effective.

There were officers who suffered consequences at the hands of chiefs, like Mr. Blair, who transferred them when they spoke out against it. It is why they are silenced today and afraid to come forward. I've received thousands of phone calls from people in Toronto, in Montreal, and across this country. Police officers are afraid to stand up because they fear the consequences in their jobs.

I'm ashamed of that. I'm ashamed as a police officer. I'm ashamed as an elected official.

You polled your members. I congratulate you. What in fact were the numbers? How many did you poll? What were the response numbers?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I'm sorry, I don't have that.

I know that our local association was polled. Everybody was polled. In the Saskatoon Police Service, the number fluctuates, but there are usually around 440 officers. Of course, it's certainly not the size of Chief Blair's association.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Do you have any idea of how many approximately? Did 75% answer? How many answered the poll or the survey?

Could you get that for us?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I'm sorry. I can try.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay. If you could give that to us later, it would be much appreciated.

I want to point out that the CPA president referred to a poll that had been done by the RCMP. There were 75,000 police officers across this county who were polled. The CPA kept referring to it.

I'm sorry. It was Mr. Wrzesnewskyj who asked a question of the CPA president, indicating that 92% of those who answered the poll were strongly using the registry. There were 408 people out of 75,000 who answered that poll. It's a ridiculous number to base any percentage on. It's ridiculous.

We have to get to the truth and the facts here. This is a divisive issue.

Sir, I commend you for standing up. I know it's a very difficult thing to do, given the pressure that has been put on this by many other police officers and other agencies.

The chief of police, Mr. Blair, also commented that it takes 37 seconds to register a firearm. Doesn't that give you confidence? It takes 37 seconds. Could you rely on that 37-second input of information to protect your life?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I don't rely on the Canadian firearms registry to protect my life at all, let alone 37 seconds. I don't rely on the information contained there.

As I said earlier, I will not swear out a search warrant based on any of the information contained in the registry, because in order to swear out a search warrant I have to swear on a Bible that I verily believe the information contained in my information to obtain a warrant is accurate and true to the best of my knowledge. I cannot and will not make that statement about the Canadian firearms registry.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much. I do applaud all police officers for their service, but we have to be truthful about this long-gun registry. It is not a clear-cut answer, and to have a majority of police officers not even know how to use it after 10 years of being in effect tells us it is wasteful, ineffective, unreliable.

Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

We now move on to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Let me thank you for your 33 years of serving and protecting Toronto citizenry, in some of the toughest neighbourhoods, I might note, and on some of the meanest streets.

I'd also like to note that over the last number of years, while you have been the chief, Toronto has had a tough gang problem. You've been effectively addressing that particular issue, and we've seen violent crime decrease in the city of Toronto. So I think I speak for all Torontonians when I express my thanks for the tremendous work you've done for over three decades.

Sir--and this is a tough one--have you ever in the past been referred to as a member of a cult?

[Chief William Blair]

It kind of caught me by surprise, but, yes, that's happened.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Collectively, all the chiefs of police that are members of your association have over 5,000 years of serving and protecting Canadians coast to coast. Have you received a letter of apology as the president of the association from the chair of this committee for having sent a communication out?

[Chief William Blair]

We've received no communication from him whatsoever.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's astounding, though I think most Canadians would find that particular cult theory laughable.

But let's move on to the next theory that's been brought forward, a conspiracy theory. We heard from a retired Winnipeg officer, Jack Tinsley, that officers have been intimidated not to attend. That officers have been prevented from attending a standing committee of the Parliament of Canada is a serious allegation. He stated that they've been silenced, and we've heard similar allegations today. In fact, Sergeant Grismer has said police officers have been ordered.

Mr. Grismer, do you subscribe to this conspiracy theory that we're hearing that a majority--in fact, you say a silent majority--of police officers across this country have been silenced?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I stand by what I have in my presentation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So you subscribe to this conspiracy theory that thousands of officers.... In fact, actually, you go further. You say that in your appearance today you represent thousands of police officers across Canada who, in your opinion, are the silent majority, or for some the “silenced” majority. So, ipso facto, you believe you represent thousands of officers across this country?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I've had the ability to stand up and voice an opinion without being hampered or ordered not to, so in that respect I take the liberty of saying that I do represent these people ipso facto.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

We had the Canadian Police Association here. They were actually elected democratically. Would you not agree that they were elected democratically to represent thousands and thousands of officers coast to coast?