Public Safety Committee on May 27th, 2010

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I will call the meeting to order.

This is the 21^st meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is our last hearing on the Canadian firearms program and the long-gun registry, the motion that was introduced, Bill C-391, by Mrs. Hoeppner.

Before I begin, there had been an agreement, as I heard, that in the absence of the chair, who could not be here today for personal reasons, when the chair stood in, there would be a corresponding decrease in the number of Conservative members. I see the Conservatives are not abiding by that.

What I would request, given that the committee had ended the previous session with a simple motion requesting the Canadian firearms program evaluation of February 2010, the internal audit... There was a motion that was not completed. I think we should simply take a vote on that matter. It's just a simple document--supposed to be a public document--that was requested. I would request that we take a vote on that.

What I can do, as that's the only matter before the committee that needs to be voted on, is I can abdicate the chair for that vote so that the agreement between the whips can be maintained.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Could you please explain what the document is that you're talking about? We have some--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

It's been referenced by both the Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP and also by the chair of the Canadian chiefs of police.

The specific document is the Canadian firearms program evaluation of February 2010 and the internal audit that was produced at that same period of time. We've had now three or four witnesses reference that.

These are to be public documents. They have not been released. We've had many witnesses referring to them. I'm simply seeking that those documents referred to by the Deputy Commissioner and others be turned over, particularly--there shouldn't be any controversy--given the fact that they are in fact going to be public documents.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

With all due respect, I believe we have Deputy Commissioner Sweeney talking about one document and Chief Bill Blair talking about another document.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I'm very specific on which document is being requested. It's the Canadian firearms program evaluation of February 2010 and the internal audit of the same period.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And who was it directed to?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

This was done by the RCMP.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And...

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

We would be making a request of the Commissioner of the RCMP for these said documents.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Who is the document directed to? Is it a Treasury Board document?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

It's an audit that was conducted by the RCMP to evaluate the effectiveness of the long-gun registry and the registry in total. It was conducted by the RCMP.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

If that's the document that--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

It was conducted in February of 2010. As far as we've been made aware, it is supposed to be a public document. It has not yet been released because they hadn't had the opportunity to translate that document.

The suggestion is simply that the document be given to the committee. If it's not available in both official languages, there would be the opportunity to translate it before it was distributed to members of committee.

It seems like a pretty simple request.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Well, the problem is that--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

What I'll do, Mr. MacKenzie, because we've had an opportunity to debate this matter--

[An hon. member]

No we haven't.

[An hon. member]

I'm not even on the... Fine: put me on the list.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

What I will do--because we do have witnesses waiting, and we carried this matter over from the other day--is I will allow five minutes of discussion. Then I'll turn the chair over to a Conservative member for the taking of the votes, and we can maintain the agreement that was made.

I'm sure the Conservative members would not want to stand in the way of an RCMP document--

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That we don't know about; that's the problem.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

--that is supposed to be public.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

You're talking about something that nobody else has. You've talked about dates and translation. We're not aware of it, with all due respect.

You started this meeting off by saying that we hadn't abided by the agreement between the whips. The agreement between the whips that we have is that either we have our full complement on this side or we take the chair and we have five, and then you're balanced on the other side.

With all due respect, Mr. Holland, you have changed the rules today.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

That is certainly not my understanding or the understanding of the other whips from the other parties.

As I said, to facilitate the progression of this meeting, I am happy to abdicate the chair for the purposes of taking the vote. If there wants to be a discussion about why you do not want an RCMP report on the effectiveness on the registry, then, as I say, I'll entertain that for the next five minutes, and then I'll abdicate the chair for the taking of the vote. Then we're going to be able to proceed with the witnesses.

On my list I have Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Just for clarification, this report that...we're not sure what it is, but this is the report that is not available in both official languages? That is the report that you're requesting?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

At this time we've been made aware of the reason why this report has not been released yet publicly: it's not yet available in both official languages.

The committee would then take this report and take the opportunity to have it translated before its dissemination to members.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You appreciate the problems that causes for certain members of this committee. I have sympathy for the concerns of Ms. Mourani and others that the distribution of a document--if we can ever ascertain what the document is--that's not in both official languages would seem to fly in the face of the normal procedures of this committee.