Evidence of meeting #34 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was factors.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
One minute. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm wondering how this bill can be improved upon, because as it is now worded, there is unfortunately no way really that we can support it. Our objective here today is to find a way to improve it.
For instance, the following changes could be made to the bill: in subclause 3(1) which amends section 10 of the Act, the word “shall“ could be substituted everywhere for the word“ may“. In addition, after paragraph (l) which reads: “any other factor that the Minister considers relevant“, we could add another paragraph that could say: “whether or not countries have the death penalty“. That would be one way of improving the bill in such a way that we could support it.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I think that certainly the government has always indicated its respect for committee work, and any motions or adjustments that are made at clause-by-clause would be taken into consideration.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
You're saying it would be possible to make these changes? That's what I want to know. Could the bill be amended this way? We could have a go at it, I think.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I don't think I have anything to add.
4:50 p.m.
A voice
Wishful thinking....
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I'm just waiting for the conversation on the other side to quiet down.
First of all, thank you very much for being here. Your views are important to us.
I'm looking at this from the point of view of the victims involved in crime, and frankly, I think our government is too, in terms of putting this forward. Because it does expand the powers of the minister to make determinations on what I would think would sometimes be a common sense basis, from the point of view of people who could be or would be affected, probably, from what I see from the statistics, perhaps in the exceptional situations. Perhaps there are situations out there in which we have been frustrated in terms of making sure we keep the public safe, but we are tied perhaps to some agreements, some rules, or some binding policies that haven't allowed us to do that in the past.
Is that a fair assessment of the terms of the general landscape of these changes to this law?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Yes, and I think one of the challenges is that there are many, many different fact patterns and situations. I recall a case from about 10 years ago, although I have to confess that at this point in my career everything is about 10 years ago--
4:55 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Maybe it's my age.
We had an unusual case of a Canadian who was facing allegations of serious fraud in Ontario. The person disappeared to England and ultimately turned up accused of a very serious violent offence in England. He was convicted and transferred back to Canada under the transfer of offenders act, unbeknownst to the family here in Canada, because of course they were estranged from him at that point. The family back here in Canada was very upset. I met with them. They had not been notified in advance. They were very concerned about the physical proximity of the individual. They were very concerned about the risk he posed to people here in Canada.
I simply raise that as an example of a situation where there can be fact patterns beyond what you can imagine. The objective of the legislation and the decision-making is to provide sufficient flexibility without being wide open. I think that's a good example of a case where there were victims here in Canada of a previous set of circumstances who felt victimized again due to not having been taken into account in the transfer decision.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I appreciate you bringing up that example, because one of the issues we've been studying as a committee, and moving forward with consensus on, is in regard to sexual offenders and how they move around and how they commit their crimes in various jurisdictions right around the world, with victims then having to find out that these people are back in their midst without any notice. These are some of the most horrific people in the world, who attack children and our families.
When my colleagues across the table say it's not good to expand the powers of a minister or ministry to be able to deal with these horrific situations when they occur, they are not regular occurrences. They are not the people who get charged with drug offences in Mexico or some place. At least, I don't believe they are; maybe I should concur with you on that.
I'm thinking that what this legislation allows us to do is to place some very common sense tests on whether or not these people should be allowed back in the country that, under the current law, ties the hands of the people making those decisions. That's why we're asking for these revisions. Am I off base in stating what I've just stated?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
No, and certainly when I say that the vast majority of transfer cases involve drug offences, obviously there are other offences as well. I certainly have seen a number of sex offences cases in the transfer application files.
As you've indicated, in this day and age I can certainly think of one where the person was active in Canada, was using the Internet in order to commit his offences, and then travelled down into the United States with the intention of committing an offence and was in fact apprehended by American authorities. But the person was active in criminal activities in Canada as well. I think there are concerns, clearly, about the mobility and reach of sex offenders, particularly in today's environment.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Just on that note, in terms of Internet crime and cybercrime, which is a topic we're certainly all aware of it but have yet to really seriously address in terms of public safety applications as changes to laws like this are looked at, how much does it play into the minds of the people who are putting this forward in terms of the legal analysis as to how we're starting to really have to react in all forms of law to deal with that?
5 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I think it is clearly an issue of concern to everyone. When the act was created in 1978, there were no computers. There was no Internet. It was not a forum that was available to people intent on criminal activity. Obviously the world has changed significantly since then.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good day, Mr. Laprade, Mrs. Campbell.
I want to begin by asking you whether, in your opinion, it's normal to want to bring criminals before a judge and punish them for the crimes they committed in Canada, before they go to another country and commit other crimes? You say that victims are afraid these criminals may be allowed back into Canada. If the US authorities were more effective and were able to arrest them, it is to Canada's advantage to punish these offenders here in Canada.
5 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Again, yes, there are many fact patterns. There may be individuals who already have a criminal record in Canada and then engage in and are apprehended for offences committed abroad. They may be committing offences in Canada that have not been detected.
Again, what we're trying to do here is assist the minister in making decisions about transfers. I'm not quite sure if your question is—
5 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
My question is, are we now in the business of victim prevention? Is that what this is all about? The victims we're talking about in case of transfers for crimes committed abroad are abroad; they're not in Canada.
5 p.m.
Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Yes, they are, but I think the consideration that's also reflected in here is in relation to victims who may also exist in Canada, but indeed, also to preventing further victimization.... So if there is a concern—
