Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was toronto.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steven Small  Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services
Jacinthe Poisson  As an Individual
Wissam Mansour  As an Individual
Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Chairman, you are editorializing a question to challenge the chair. By the rules, the question should immediately be put. There is no debate on that motion. You're debating and you're trying to editorialize before the motion. That's totally inappropriate. Your job as chair is to follow the rules of procedure. The rule of procedure when the challenge has been made is that you are to immediately put the question to the committee without debate.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. You see that the chair has been challenged on his decision. The decision that I stated was that this type of language would be refrained from in this committee and that as the chair I would try to maintain decorum. I have been challenged on that, and we will now take the vote.

All those in favour that the ruling of the chair be sustained, please so indicate.

(Ruling of the chair overturned)

The chair has been overruled.

Madam, that means you can use whatever language you want.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Wissam Mansour

Thank you, but again, it's not my language; it's what I was told. I do have a lot of respect for everybody here.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have the floor.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Wissam Mansour

I'm describing the circumstances to you. I was questioned for some time. I obviously didn't know the time and was therefore unable to verify how much time had elapsed. The interrogation was very respectful at first. It was subsequently, when the police officers seemed dissatisfied by my answers, that they started to raise their voices and to insult me. One thing I would like to mention is that I was also called a “fucking foreigner” and that was very hurtful. I'm Canadian, I was born in Canada, and I don't at all accept the fact that I was called a “foreigner”. Even though I wasn't born in the same province as they were, we all belong to the same country. I was also told that if I had to break objects, I should go back to my city, to Montreal, and do it there. That's it.

The two inspectors left the premises and slammed the door with a degree of frustration. When they came back—it took some time for them to come back—one of them entered the room, left the door open and told me I was lucky because his colleague believed me, but that, if it had just been up to him, I would have had to stay there for a very long time. Then he told me that I would be released and that the charges would be dropped. I was left in the room for some time to do the paperwork, and they came back to...

I apologize for going backward, but I simply want to point out that, when I was searched, they put me in metal handcuffs, and when I entered the room where I was interrogated, they removed them from me and never put them back on. I was able to recover my personal property. They did a second audio and video recording of me so that they could tell me that the charges were dropped. I never had to sign anything and I was able to leave.

I had no idea where I was. I was in pyjamas and my telephone batteries were low. I had little money on me and no one offered to let me use the telephone or to call anyone. So I left, I found myself—I don't really know how, but on foot—on the campus, and I was not allowed to go in and pick up my personal property. During all that time, I really thought that all the people in the gymnasium had experienced the same series of events. It was only afterwards that I learned they had been imprisoned in the temporary detention centre.

So I would like to emphasize that. To a certain degree, I was lucky to have experienced that situation. I had the opportunity to answer questions, which was not afforded to my friends or all those who were in the gymnasium. My friends were incarcerated for 62 hours before being released and actually acquitted on October 14, whereas we had spent all our time together during the events. I believe it would be very important to conduct an investigation so that my experience can show how disorganized things were and especially that no one went to meet these people in order to ask them questions, and that is something fundamental. In any democracy, I believe everyone has a right to speak and must be allowed a chance to do so before being incarcerated in a cage like animals.

Thank you very much.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup, Ms. Mansour.

We'll now move to Ms. Des Rosiers.

October 27th, 2010 / 4 p.m.

Nathalie Des Rosiers General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Thank you for your invitation. I am here on behalf of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I am accompanied by Graeme Norton.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association has been in existence since 1964 and is a rights and liberties advocacy agency in Canada. My predecessor is Alan Borovoy, whom you no doubt know. In Toronto, the association had 50 trained volunteers, neutral observers, who circulated throughout the week.

First I will speak in French and then in English. My presentation is divided into three parts. The first part contains the on-site observations that the association made, and I obviously invite you to look beyond the images conveyed by the media to see what actually happened across the city of Toronto. We had the opportunity to obtain evidence and to see it directly.

Second, I will talk

about the issues that this raises for a democracy, about several factual issues that need to be investigated, and about some really fundamental issues in future public security for other large events in the public policy order in Canada.

Finally, I have some conclusions about the need for a public inquiry. We have some proposed terms of reference that we want to circulate to the committee. I want to conclude on that.

First of all, the association had recruited 50 volunteers. We had met with representatives of the Integrated Security Unit in early May to discuss our evaluation and observation program with them. They were aware of the program. We also discussed certain issues that are generally the same in the context of major demonstrations. Among other things, we tried to raise the capital importance of international relations after large demonstrations, such as

“Adapting to Protest”, which was done after the London G-20.

In this report that was issued after an inquiry into the policing of the G-20 meeting in London, the first recommendation starts this way:

The right to freedom of assembly places obligations on the police. The starting point for the police is the presumption in favour of facilitating peaceful assembly. [Certainly] police may impose lawful restrictions on the exercise of the right....

But these restrictions must have a legitimate aim; they must be lawful and they must be necessary and proportionate.

The association's findings, based on the reports that have been submitted to it and on the observations it made during that weekend, were as follows.

We have circulated the summary of our report. It is our view that, despite instances of commendable and professional conduct, security efforts, especially after 5:00 p.m. on June 26 and June 27, failed to come up to the standard of constitutional commitments. Police conduct and actions were at times disproportionate, arbitrary and excessive.

We obviously recognize that the task of police officers was difficult, and we also noted that there were instances of competent and professional conduct throughout the week—and we were there all week. In spite of everything, Canadians are entitled to police services that do not undermine constitutional values. It is therefore essential to investigate to determine to what extent constitutional values were disregarded. How is it that we experienced the weekend that we had? How is it that more than 1,100 people were arrested? We now know that no charges will be laid against 1,000 of them. Consequently, 1,105 individuals were arrested and, in 1,000 of those cases, no charges will be laid. These were therefore innocent people.

I want to move quickly to the fact that throughout our media observations, five of our monitors were arrested in these mass arrests. There was a mass arrest on the Saturday night at The Esplanade and one on Sunday morning that was described very eloquently here. There was another mass arrest on Sunday afternoon at the corner of Queen and Spadina, which has been well documented. Some of our monitors were arrested both Saturday night and Sunday at Queen and Spadina.

I'll just read the quote from our monitor, who, with his partner, was in charge of following the march:

My monitoring partner and I followed the march of about 300 protesters down Yonge Street and onto The Esplanade. A line of police officers dressed in riot gear with what appeared to be tear gas guns formed a line about 300m west of Yonge St. on The Esplanade. The protesters stopped in front of the police line and continued chanting the lines they had been chanting for as long as we had been following them that day: “This is what democracy looks like!”, “Peaceful protest!”, “Who's streets? Our streets!”, and so on. This continued on for about twenty minutes without the police line or the protesters moving, or anything more than chanting and cheering. Then, from the east out of Scott St., a line of police officers in riot gear formed along The Esplanade and marched towards the crowd.

The officers in both police lines began marching slowly towards each other, clattering their batons and shields, and so forcing the crowd together. The police lines stopped when they were about 30 meters apart. The protesters, and anyone else who happened to be on the street or sidewalk, were now boxed in between two police lines, including my partner and I, and three people who had been standing outside of a restaurant, smoking. The protesters chants where more urgent and more often people called out or chanted with “Peaceful protest!” at the police lines. Several times then, and in the time that followed, small groups of officers would suddenly charge into the crowd, grab someone and pull them back behind their line. One protester called out to the crowd to say that everyone should sit down, which many did. The crowd was much more quiet, and we all were waiting. Calls and chants began saying, “Let us go!”, and one protester called out, “Okay, I’ve learned my lesson, I want to go home now!” After an hour or more of waiting like this, an officer announced that if we raised our hands and waited we would all be peacefully arrested. This was the first time we had heard any communications from the police. My partner and I waited for another two hours or so before it was our turns to be pulled from the crowd and arrested.

He stayed in a detention centre for 20 hours. We were unable to call him. His hands were tied for 20 hours, and so on.

This is the testimony. I think you will hear more testimony. It was certainly a sad weekend for civil liberties in Canada. We can do better. These are some of the issues that have arisen.

I want to speak now to some of the larger issues that I think a public inquiry could look at. There are some questions about where the police were, why they were not where the vandals were, why they stayed with the protestors, what orders were given, and why there was dispersement of a peaceful crowd. We were there. We saw that it was peaceful. Was there a miscommunication somewhere? Something went wrong.

Second, I think the larger issues are what I want to discuss briefly. During the G-20 and in preparation for it, I think security imperatives redefined fundamental aspects of Toronto life and Canadian life, without much democratic engagement or discussion and without legal authority.

Space and mobility were redefined. Weaponry was redefined. Privacy was redefined. Policing and criminal law were redefined. Such redefinitions may have been necessary, we don't know, but they occurred without public input and without some legal framework around them. It's not true that martial law was declared during the weekend of the G-20.

The price tag is questioned, but is presented as a fait accompli. Indeed, it is a major issue for our democracy that the security infrastructure is not only costly, but it appears to be immune from any scrutiny or democratic input.

The cost to our liberty, to the freedom of peaceful assembly, and to the freedom from arbitrary detention and arrest and from unreasonable search and seizure are mentioned and presumed necessary. This is dangerous. Our system of government requires that all powers be exercised according to law. The absence of a legal framework for a broad exercise in redefining police powers and space and weaponry is dangerous.

In our report we mentioned the difficulty in how the fence was set up. I think the issue of what the framework is for defining a fence should be looked at in a public inquiry. It's not that people say there shouldn't be a fence; it's how big it would be and who decides how big it will be. Will it be a prioritization where Parliament or some other official can look at and evaluate whether indeed it is necessary, because “reasonableness” and “necessity” are the words that are mentioned in the act? As you know, it's the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act.

The only thing we're saying is that the way in which it was done...we may learn from what has happened to indeed ensure that there are some appropriate safeguards ahead of time.

It is interesting that in the design of the roots for protest no one paid attention to what the APEC's report mentioned at the end of the 1990s. In the APEC's report, Ted Hughes, who was then the chairman, said that in establishing the parameter of security, the foreigners are not allowed to be completely immune from seeing and hearing the protesters. Their business must be conducted, they should not be interrupted, but the idea that you can create a retreat-like atmosphere completely immune from looking at or seeing the protesters was described as incompatible with our constitutional law.

I understand my time is running out.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Actually I've been very generous to you. You're about two minutes over.

4:15 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

Okay. I'll just conclude briefly on this.

Basically, on the fence, we are inviting a prioritization. The weaponry is the same, and I think for the entire legal structure....

I want to conclude with two things.

You have now the terms of reference that we're suggesting, which were designed with Amnesty International. We understand why the public may be reluctant to spend other money on the G-20. However, all the reviews that are taking place now are partial and they will not get at the interactions between CSIS, the RCMP, and what was going on. That's a crucial piece of information that is needed, both for the public and for the police to be able to present what indeed happened.

In our view, it will be cheaper not to wait for the two class actions to be resolved, but to proactively exercise leadership from the federal government to indeed recognize that something went wrong there and that it should be concluded.

I have one more point. I just want to say that you cannot have 1,000 people arrested and the message is that their government does not care.

I also speak to you as both men and women of political life. In our view of what happened, the freedom to peaceful assembly is as important as the right to vote. If we don't support it, if we don't support peaceful political engagement, I think we're losing a generation. I implore you to listen to them.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. McColeman, on a point of order.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

I'm speaking now because I wanted to give the witnesses time and not interrupt the testimony. I've been waiting quite patiently for you, sir, to provide a ruling on Mr. Davies from the NDP.

At a recent committee meeting he blatantly broke the rules of speaking about in camera business in a public forum. It was our committee forum. I brought that to you and I've been waiting for your ruling for two meetings now, sir. I'm wondering if you are able to deal with the fact that Mr. Davies has done this. He's done it for a second time. I'd like to know what your ruling is.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thanks, Mr. McColeman, for bringing that forward today.

I'm going to come with something written down and a little more clear than just speaking. I've taken a look at it, and I will be ruling on it, but I won't be ruling on it today.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

Do you know when that might be?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Fairly soon.

Plus, there are things in that breach of confidentiality, if indeed it was a breach, that I can't disclose in a public meeting. I'm looking at how we can go in camera for the disclosure of what was said, if there was something said that would have been a breach.

I'm not going to make a ruling on that today.

We're going to continue with our witnesses. We'll go to Mr. Kania.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Chairman, before I start, we do have at least two motions today, so I want to clarify that we will follow procedure and leave the last 15 minutes of this meeting to deal with those.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

On the notice of motion, correct? They're just notices, so--

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Yes. Thank you.

I'd like to start by addressing Madam Mansour and Madam Poisson. I listened intently to both of your stories about your treatment and the words stated to you, and I find it all unacceptable. I just want to state that as a member of Parliament.

Mr. Small, did you or your ministry have any role with the detention centre?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

Steven Small

If you're referring to the Eastern Avenue detention centre, no, none whatsoever.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

In terms of the planning for this, in my analysis, to me, there was some deficiency. We had two things here: roughly 1,000 innocent people who were arrested without charges; and at the same time we had a small group, the black bloc, and perhaps others, who were allowed to go through the city and cause mayhem and damage.

I will ask why you think this happened, based on your role. Who was responsible for the breakdown in the planning with both measures?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

Steven Small

I'm not in a position to answer that question.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Did you or your ministry have any planning role whatsoever in terms of when arrests of protestors would be made?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

Steven Small

None whatsoever.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Did you have any role in terms of when and how the police would be deployed to guard against persons who might seek to cause damage in the downtown of Toronto?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

Steven Small

None whatsoever.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

In terms of such planning, based on the experience and knowledge you had, who from the federal government was responsible to coordinate and make these decisions, in terms of both arrests and the protection of persons and property in Toronto?