Evidence of meeting #56 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
How do you conduct your analysis? What is it based on? What are the facts that allow you to say that there may be an effect?
9:40 a.m.
Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
It is only if you accept the assumption.
9:40 a.m.
Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Yes, but in this case, our assumption is that it will cause an increase in the number of inmates.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I understand. I also do research and when I make an assumption I have to either confirm it or reject it, and that is based on facts. You can neither confirm nor infirm this assumption of yours. You assume there could be an impact.
9:40 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
9:40 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
That is true. But this is an exchange of ideas and questions are raised. For instance, if you change the rate of recidivism, is it possible to see an increase or a...
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
9:40 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
It is possible. If you design a model to assess costs, the assumptions are integrated into this model. If you change an assumption or increase the rate, it is possible to say that there will be either a positive or negative effect on costs.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
However, based on your assumption, you cannot say whether this impact will be positive or negative given that you have yet to prove your assumption.
9:40 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
No, I am here to deal specifically with the financial costs of the Truth in Sentencing Act.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
We are dealing with Bill C-25. All right. Based on your experience since assuming this position, do you have knowledge of any bills that may not have cost Parliament anything? Are there bills which cost nothing?
Can you respond to my question please?
9:45 a.m.
Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
There are administrative costs connected to some bills, but they do not necessarily have a great impact on the government's budget.
9:45 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
So, all bills costs something, whether we are talking about administrative costs or other costs.
9:45 a.m.
Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
It depends. That is an assumption...
9:45 a.m.
Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
... with models, considerations and revisions.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Madam Mourani.
And thank you to our guests for appearing in this first hour. We certainly appreciate your attendance, your testimony, and your bringing your other officials with you.
We will now suspend.
We see that the Minister of Public Safety has arrived. We will ask him to take a place at the table fairly soon.
We'll suspend for five minutes.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
In our second hour this morning we are continuing our committee study of the expansion of penitentiaries.
Appearing in this hour, we welcome the Honourable Vic Toews, Minister of Public Safety, and also Don Head, the Commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada. Our committee thanks both of you for appearing before us today to help us with this study.
In my brief time as chair, I note that Minister Toews has always eagerly responded to our requests to appear. He has in fact testified three times over the last number of months.
I invite the minister to deliver his opening statement, and then we will proceed with the questions.
Welcome, Minister Toews.
9:45 a.m.
Provencher Manitoba
Conservative
Vic Toews ConservativeMinister of Public Safety
Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members. It is my pleasure to be here. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to be before the committee again to assist you in your study of prison expansion.
As mentioned, I'm joined by Don Head, Commissioner of Correctional Services Canada.
I also note that in the audience we have Mr. Shawn Tupper, assistant deputy minister, community safety and partnerships. I don't know whether we'll require his services, but he is here if necessary.
Let me start by saying there is no greater responsibility and indeed no greater privilege for any government than to ensure the safety and security of its citizens. There can be no greater priority than that of ensuring our citizens can live their lives free from fear and concern over their safety and the safety of their loved ones.
As honourable committee members are aware, the safety and security of Canadians has always been and remains today one of the key priorities of our government's public safety agenda since we came to power in 2006. In order for our economy and our citizens to grow and thrive, we must take action to ensure our borders are secure, our critical infrastructure and cyber networks are resilient, and our streets and schools are safe.
That is why, Mr. Chairman, our government has taken a multi-sided approach to preventing and responding to criminal activity. We have introduced a host of initiatives that help to strengthen victims' rights, that give our police the tools and resources they need to prevent and investigate crime, and that improve the judicial and correctional institutions.
We have also introduced measures to make sure that offenders, particularly those who commit dangerous and violent crimes, pay the full debt they owe to society. They can no longer receive two-for-one credit for time served in custody prior to sentencing, and mandatory minimum sentences for serious crimes such as using a gun are now in place to reflect the severity of those crimes. These activities and others reflect our government's commitment to strengthening the rights of victims, increasing the responsibility of offenders, and making our communities safer.
Mr. Chairman, I have paid close attention to the debates and comments from honourable committee members who suggest that spending money to improve and expand our federal prison facilities is expensive and not worth the price. Mr. Chair, our government has been very clear and up front on this issue. We agree that our efforts to tackle crime and keep Canadians safe come at a cost. We understand there is a cost to keeping dangerous criminals behind bars. It is, however, a price we are willing to pay. Action has a cost. It is a cost we are willing to pay, because the cost to society is so much more, and not just in dollars: the cost of fear and insecurity, the cost of physical and property damage, and the cost of threats, intimidation, and loss of spirit in communities from coast to coast to coast.
That's why we have put forward an ambitious program to enhance our offender-accommodation strategy, and that is why we are here today to talk about our efforts to expand and improve correctional institutions. As honourable committee members know, Correctional Services Canada plays a key role in contributing to public safety. Its over 16,000 employees work around the clock at 57 correctional institutions, 16 community correctional centres, and 84 parole offices across the country to help keep Canadians safe. Keeping these federal corrections institutions efficient and effective will help CSC staff to continue their important work.
We need to ensure that our methods and our infrastructure keep up with and indeed get ahead of new forms of criminality. Mr. Chair, our government is aware of the realities, and this is why we have moved forward with concrete measures to ensure that Correctional Services Canada has the proper facilities to keep dangerous offenders off our streets. To this end, our government has made several funding announcements to expand and improve our existing federal prisons. On January 20 of this year, our government announced funding for renewal of infrastructure in the amount of $601 million. This will allow for an additional 2,552 beds at federal prisons across the country.
As honourable committee members will know, we have told Canadians that we are taking a measured approach to these expansions. Yes, we are providing funding to expand prisons, but we are doing so in a thoughtful, fiscally sound manner.
Our first step has been to examine how we can expand and improve our existing federal prisons before we consider building new facilities. One way to expand capacity within our existing infrastructures is to extend and increase temporary accommodation measures such as double occupancy in cells, or double-bunking as it's commonly referred to. I've heard honourable members say that double-bunking will lead to increased violence in our prisons. In fact, double-bunking is a reasonable and responsible measure for holding inmates in correctional institutions. The CSC has proper policies in place to ensure the appropriate use of this housing method. We are also moving ahead with plans to construct new living units within many of CSC's existing men's institutions and at each of its women's institutions.
The question has been asked many times, and indeed it is why we are here today: What is the price of strengthening our corrections system and expanding our prison facility? While I'm happy to repeat the funding amount, as I have done on so many occasions to honourable members, and for all Canadians, I would like to quote the head of the Correctional Service of Canada, who appeared before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates last October, and said: “Our current estimates are approximately $2 billion over five years in order to provide sufficient resources to address the additional double-bunking that will occur, and to get the new units up and running. This also includes funds to ensure that we continue to provide offenders under our supervision with access to programs.”
I would also like to point out a figure of $90 million that has been consistently used in an erroneous fashion by members in the House and by the media. The $90 million that I quoted initially was the capital cost for essentially the first year. The first year was $2 million, and then $88 million for the second year, but that was the initial appropriation. Nowhere does the record indicate that this was the extent of our capital initiatives. My comments and those of the head of corrections have been consistent in this from the beginning: $2 billion over five years. I know that members will continue to mislead both the committee and the House in that respect, but I want to put that on the record once again.
As honourable committee members can see, we have been straightforward on the price of expanding and improving our corrections system. As you heard from the head of the CSC, this figure includes ensuring that offenders can continue to access rehabilitation programs. I'm confident that the costs of our legislative program will be no more than the amounts that I and Mr. Head have set out on many occasions. I say this because when I became the Minister of Public Safety last year I was provided with forecasts of the impact of the government's legislation upon the offender population. Those forecasts are important because they are the basis upon which we determine whether new facilities are needed.
In February 2010, CSC forecast that the offender population as of March 31, 2011, would be 15,038 men and 573 women, a total of 15,611 inmates in custody. Those forecasts took into account normal growth and the impact of our Tackling Violent Crime Act and our Truth in Sentencing Act. The total forecast inmate population increase for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011, was 1,280. That was the total forecast of increase: 1,280. Our government has proceeded with construction plans based upon those forecasts. However, I would note that by March 31 of this year, the inmate population will have increased by only 390 inmates, less than one-third the number forecast by CSC. So they forecast 1,280; the actual increase for the remainder of this fiscal year will be 390.
The difference between the actual and forecast numbers suggests that the costs associated with our legislation may not be as large as expected. We will continue to monitor this, and if the trend continues, our construction plans will provide the government with the opportunity to shut down a number of our older, more expensive and less safe facilities in favour of modern correctional institutions.
Mr. Chairman, our government believes this is a small price to pay to ensure that dangerous offenders who are convicted of breaking the law receive the proper sentence and are incarcerated for an appropriate amount of time. By taking a tough stance on crime, our government is making good on its pledge to keep Canadians safe on our streets.
By expanding existing capacity within the federal prison system, we can ensure that offenders have the proper space and facilities in which to serve sentences that better reflect the severity of their crimes. We are, first and foremost, committed to protecting Canadians. We must ensure that violent offenders are kept off our streets. Canadians have told us they want to keep our vulnerable--particularly our children--safe, and this is what we are doing.
Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, our government believes that sentences and time served should adequately reflect the seriousness and consequences of a crime. By strengthening our correctional system, we can ensure that offenders are held accountable for their criminal actions. Yes, there is a financial cost for combatting crime, but we must also weigh the social cost to victims and society. We will not apologize for spending money on our correctional system to ensure that Canadians are safe. The protection of Canadians must come first, and that's why we remain firmly committed to investing in prison expansion and in stronger rehabilitation programs. These investments will help ensure that dangerous offenders serve a sentence that reflects the severity of their crime.
Our government is proud to be on the right side of this issue, the side of law-abiding Canadians, the side of victims who want justice, and the side that understands that it is worth paying the price for a safe, secure, and just society.
Thank you. I will be happy to take any questions.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Minister Toews.
Mr. Holland, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.