Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2011

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, I am asking about the legislation that is in front of us. I am asking about Bill C-4. Let's start with Bill C-4. What is the head count for Bill C-4? What is the projected cost? It is something you are asking Parliament to pass. What about Bill C-5, Bill C-16? You take your choice. There are 24 bills.

Give me any bill, Minister. Give me projected head counts, projected costs on any bill of your choosing--just one. Why don't you give it to me on Bill C-59? It just passed--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That simplistic question is exactly why you're so far off base on your whole crime and justice--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, are you telling me that Parliament should vote with a blindfold on? Should we have no information, Minister?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me finish. No, that's not.... Let me continue with my answer.

I don't set the rules here in terms of how much time you have to answer, but I am entitled to answer the question on the basis of the facts that I have. So the facts are that there was an estimate that there would be an increase of prisoners of 1,280. The reality is that it is less than one-third.

You asked about head counts; I'm giving you the head counts.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, I asked about the 24 bills going forward--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Your time is up, Mr. Holland.

Madam Mourani, we'll move to you, and you have seven minutes, please.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Toews for being here. Mr. Head, welcome to the committee.

I have a question for you, Minister. Are you listening to me, Minister?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have to listen to the translation.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Can you tell me how much Bill C-59 will cost?

We know that you have the precise figures. The day before yesterday, Ms. Campbell, who appeared before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, which was considering this bill, told us that she had the figures, which means you also have them.

How much will Bill C-59 cost?

[Don Head, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

I'll answer on behalf of the minister.

Because of the change in Bill C-59 in relation to the issue of retrospective, we are still finalizing the costing. That's a recent change, and it has required us to go back and revisit our assumptions. We hope to have that in the next few days, but as of this moment we don't have it.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

When you have the figure, I would like it to be forwarded to the committee, if possible. Please send us this information.

Can you tell me what the cost estimate was before adding the retroactivity provision you referred to?

[Don Head]

The estimate for Bill C-59 prospectively was an ongoing cost of about $40 million a year.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Per a year? Very well.

I have other questions for you, Mr. Head. I know that you have an excellent knowledge of the parole system and the length of sentences. Do you believe that Bill C-59 removes day parole six months before a third of the sentence has been served?

[Don Head]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your question. I understand the bill—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The bill itself, as I understand it, eliminates all accelerated parole.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

They could be granted expeditiously. Yes.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It eliminates all accelerated parole, not simply day parole.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That is correct. Quite right. But could an inmate who has committed a non-violent offence be released six months before a third of his sentence has been served if the risk can be managed by society?

[Don Head]

The rules for day parole and full parole will still apply to offender sentences, so there's no change there. What's affected are the provisions for how that's reviewed and assessed by the parole board.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you. Many falsehoods were reported yesterday by the New Democrats and the Liberals and I wanted to mention it today. On the other hand, for sentences under three-years, the impact is nil with respect to wait times. It amounts to early release. If you calculate over a three year period, a third of the sentence is 12 months. You can also remove six months from the sentence, because the inmate is eligible for release six months before a third of the sentence is served, which will be six months. That amounts to practically a sixth of the sentence, except that, from now on, board members will have to meet with people. It will no longer be based on a case assessment. Moreover, officers will have to assess the risk of re-offending not in terms of violent offences, but in terms of the global risk of recidivism. Is that correct?

[Don Head]

That's right, there will be a more general overall risk assessment of the individual. Our prediction is that individuals who were previously receiving grants for accelerated parole will not be staying in for huge periods of time. They're going to stay in for a little longer time.

In our calculations we add up those additional offender days and turn them into the equivalent of 360 offender days, as one additional bed that we would require. That's how we do our calculations. But we're not talking about significant periods of time for individuals who were previously being granted accelerated parole.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you. I understand the $40 million figure and it seems to me that that is a cost society can bear. Further, I have done some calculations regarding sentences. For four-year sentences, I expect the wait to be approximately two additional months. For five-years sentence, it would be about four months. The period increases for longer sentences of eight, nine, ten or eleven years. Those are the sentences people like Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones get, people who have committed serious financial crimes and people who may take part in organized crime. But let's set aside the Vincent Lacroix's of this world.

As an officer, I have in the past been compelled to recommend early release in the case of leaders or mafia members, simply because they had not committed violent crimes, because their crimes were carried out by henchmen.

As you know, based on the way in which criminal organizations work, when you are at the top of the pyramid, you do not necessarily pull the trigger. Those people were therefore freed following an expeditious review. Am I wrong in saying that?

[Don Head]

Again, if the offence they were sentenced for was deemed to be in the category of non-violent, then yes, they would be eligible under the accelerated parole review. Now they would be subjected to the same kinds of reviews as all other offenders would.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Head. This gives us an opportunity to set the record straight because the NDP speeches heard yesterday were in the realm of demagogy. I'm extremely disappointed to hear personal attacks on me and to hear people casting doubt on my credibility as a former parole officer and criminologist with experience in this field. I do not usually talk about what I've done, but it is important for me to set the record straight, as what happened yesterday was unacceptable. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Mourani. You're ten seconds over.

We'll now move to Mr. Davies, please.