Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tony Van De Mortel  As an Individual
Kenneth Putnam  As an Individual

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Van De Mortel.

We'll move to Madam Hoeppner, please.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of you as well for being here and for your candid stories and your personal experiences. I just want to tell you, Mr. Putnam, your son's death was not in vain. Mr. Van De Mortel, your injury was not in vain because of what you're able to help people like us learn. So I just thank you very much for that.

We heard testimony from a guard from Stony Mountain Institution that, in his opinion, the majority of drugs that were brought into prisons were not just for personal use. So it was not just people smuggling them in through family members for their own personal drug addiction, but it was to distribute and sell in the prison.

From your experience, Mr. Van De Mortel, would you agree that's the reason that drugs are being smuggled in by family members or other means?

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

I would agree with that totally.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

We heard some conflicting testimony. Early on in our study, we heard that strong interdiction methods were very intrusive for family members. I was quite surprised, and I disagreed with the premise that family members should not be searched because it didn't make them feel comfortable. We heard that testimony, and then we heard another individual testify that probably the best way to keep drugs out was for families to know that they would be intercepted at the gate.

Mr. Putnam, I'm wondering if you can just speak about your son's experience for a moment where he was pressured to bring drugs in. If he had known that the methods at the gate at the prison were such that there would be no way--there would be dogs, there would be scanners, there would be searches--and he would be able to say to these individuals pressuring him, “Listen, guys, I'm going to get caught, you know what it's like at that place”, would that have stopped him? If he had been sentenced after his parole and if things had gone differently.... Would you agree that strong interdiction methods are a deterrent to bringing drugs in, or are they just a hassle and a problem for family members coming to visit?

Noon

As an Individual

Kenneth Putnam

I think they are definitely a deterrent. I can't imagine being a superintendent of a correctional facility anywhere and allowing friends or family members to have free rein, just coming and going as they please and not being checked or searched.

Would it have stopped my son? Probably not, in his case. In a lot of other cases, probably for a great percentage it would have. His view of the whole thing was that the punishment he would get for being caught was less than the punishment he'd get for not bringing it in.

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Following that logic, should the punishment be harsher for bringing it in?

Noon

As an Individual

Kenneth Putnam

I think it should be on par with.... Here, I'm not 100% clear. If people are bringing it in and they get caught, I believe they're dealt with internally through an internal process of the correctional facilities. It should at least be on par I think with the criminal court systems.

You have to remember, too, inasmuch as it's distasteful to talk about this, a lot of the drugs are brought into facilities internally.

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Exactly, yes, which is why I'm wondering if even stronger and more thorough methods need to be guaranteed so that individuals know they won't be able to do it.

Noon

As an Individual

Kenneth Putnam

Are you talking about X-rays and full-body scanners?

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Yes.

How much time do I have?

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have a minute and a half.

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

We heard testimony from individuals who are professionals and experts, but they don't have the experience that either of you have. They don't have the experience in prisons. They talk about harm reduction, and I find that quite an ironic term because harm reduction doesn't seem to be harm reduction for officers. They talk about allowing needles in prisons, and they've testified to us that there would be no problem; officers would not have to worry about the needles being used as weapons.

Mr. Van De Mortel, can you please tell us how you feel about needles in prisons, not only for your safety but for inmates who are trying to behave themselves and not get into any trouble?

Noon

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

That whole concept is just absurd to me, personally. I don't want any needles in there at all. They can say they're not going to use them as weapons, or what have you, but right now they shouldn't be getting drugs and brews in there and they're doing it. They will find a way to get that needle into their dorms and use it for other purposes. It will happen.

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

What about for inmates? We were told guards can wear gloves. Do other inmates have that assurance of safety if there would be needles and other drug paraphernalia provided?

Noon

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

As I say, they will get the needles where they want to get them, and then they can use them against other inmates, as well as officers. It won't be safe for anybody.

Noon

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Ms. Hoeppner.

We will now go to Madam Morin.

Noon

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Good morning.

First of all, I want to thank our witnesses. I must say that I am very impressed by the courage you have shown, coming here today. Your stories are exceedingly touching, and I appreciate this opportunity to speak with you.

My first question is for Mr. Van De Mortel. You said something very interesting earlier. You said that the officers are the programs. Do you think that the corrections officers are sufficiently integrated in the rehabilitation programs, the reintegration programs, the prevention and treatment programs for drug addiction?

Noon

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

Yes, there is training. There are some officers, obviously, who have had more training. That's where it would help to have all officers on a level playing field and all get trained. A lot of this other training is done personally. You take it up on your own. It would be much better if it were mandatory for every officer to get this extra training.

As I said, we're with these inmates at all times. We're the ones who talk to them day to day. They come to us with the stories, and we're the ones who can actually help them make the right decisions.

Noon

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Are you talking about mandatory training programs that would be part of your job, for example, training on addiction, as you were saying, and also maybe on psycho-social measures and those kinds of things? Would that be something that would be useful to the corrections officers who want to help the inmates?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

Yes, that would help. It would help us do our jobs and help us understand and enable us to help them more productively.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Right now, if I am not mistaken, the training programs that are available are used when the officers want them; they decide if they are going to take the training or not. Nothing is mandatory.

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Tony Van De Mortel

There is a lot of extra course work officers have to take on their own initiative afterwards. As officers, we get very basic training, but for the high-end addiction stuff, we have to take our own initiative.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for both our witnesses.

My colleague talked about the inmate population that has been increasing for the last few years and that will continue to increase. Mr. Putnam, you said that most inmates wanted to turn their lives around, that they were proud when they managed to do it. In addition, when we discussed the increase in the inmate population, you said that it wouldn't prevent you from doing your job, from intercepting drugs or other forbidden items.

Over the last few weeks, we were told of a concern that we also have here, and it is the following. If the inmate population were to increase markedly, would all the inmates with an addiction problem who wish to stop using drugs have access to drug treatment and rehabilitation programs within a reasonable period of time? I mean during the first few weeks of their entering the correctional facility.

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Kenneth Putnam

I have to apologize. I didn't get the question.